Would you submit a production to a €100 Linux demo contest?
category: general [glöplog]
yeti, try installing windows xp on some old hardware. You have some surprises sometimes. Like not finding graphic drivers or network drivers. Admittedly it is for lesser manufacturers (although the network card was hp) but still.
Hardware manufacturers have no interest in porting their old hardware's drivers to windows' new versions. Whereas linux usually carries the old ones with it.
Hardware manufacturers have no interest in porting their old hardware's drivers to windows' new versions. Whereas linux usually carries the old ones with it.
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i also agree with viznut. binary-only releases on unix platforms suck.
nosfe: i also agree with viznut. however i dont think that means i should enforce an open-source-only competition. it should merely be a suggestion. oh btw, x-mix 2004 is not released with source on lx, why? ;)
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Windows works fine - what's the point?
windows is not free - free as in beer.
Hmm... hot linking...
Would you submit a production to a €100 Linux photoshop contest?
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windows is not free - free as in beer.
neither are grapics- or soundcards! or cpus! let's ditch them also!
Depends on how light your fingers are...
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neither are grapics- or soundcards! or cpus! let's ditch them also!
Finally, a voice of reason.
To complete my disdain:
"Yes, that ATI card will have to go if you want to run Linux and do something serious with 3D."
"So to get similar performance under Linux, I have to buy a new card that'll set me back hundreds of dollars for the privilege of the OS being free? Wow. Hey, I have a number of fingers for you, and the number is one. Take a guess which one."
This was before I fed my Radeon a beer, but the concept still sticks. Linux zealots should go online and petition the fuck out of graphics vendors to release drivers that don't make your religious crusade a joke. Come back when that happens.
But pouet users give us more attention. ATI execs just ignore us. And everyone loves attention.
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Would you submit a production to a €100 Linux photoshop contest?
Well, i could :)
shifter: scrap the consumer mentality, youre above that :)
What's consumer mentality in demanding quality?
The problems in linux drivers are exactly what shifter said. People should just ban all nda driver stuff from unix type platforms to get anything useful to happen. Since hell is already frozen because of Finland's eurovision victory something might even happen!
Gargaj: Probably Paniq is suggesting that shifter shall write those goddamn drivers by himself if he's so insisting on having them ;)
Mao Tse Tux
who needs graphics anyway
what's wrong with consumer mentality and why should shifter be above that?
Graphics on Linux sucks, even with good nVidia-drivers. The reason is that horrible X-Windows-crap. It doesn't even allow you to get decent exclusive access to 2D-graphics with V-sync. You don't get hardware acceleration or anything. It just _sucks_.
There were good approaches to graphics on Linux, like SVGAlib and DirectFB... but the Linux-guys didn't like them and for some strange reason (like "WE UNIX USERS HAD IT FOR DECADES SO IT MUST BE GOOD AND ANYTHING ELSE IS EVIL!!!") stayed with the X11-stuff. That way, "Linux + multimedia" will never really work.
There were good approaches to graphics on Linux, like SVGAlib and DirectFB... but the Linux-guys didn't like them and for some strange reason (like "WE UNIX USERS HAD IT FOR DECADES SO IT MUST BE GOOD AND ANYTHING ELSE IS EVIL!!!") stayed with the X11-stuff. That way, "Linux + multimedia" will never really work.
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Graphics on Linux sucks, even with good nVidia-drivers. The reason is that horrible X-Windows-crap. It doesn't even allow you to get decent exclusive access to 2D-graphics with V-sync. You don't get hardware acceleration or anything. It just _sucks_.
There were good approaches to graphics on Linux, like SVGAlib and DirectFB... but the Linux-guys didn't like them and for some strange reason (like "WE UNIX USERS HAD IT FOR DECADES SO IT MUST BE GOOD AND ANYTHING ELSE IS EVIL!!!") stayed with the X11-stuff. That way, "Linux + multimedia" will never really work.
1. Security + stability has its price (or can you guarantee that your program is written so well that it does not kill my system because of improper use of direct access?)
2. All my multimedia thingies are working properly, this includes playing every video + audio format with a superb framerate or quality and editing videos with kdenlive, for example
3. Games are working good and with no performance loss compared to windows
4. You can have direct access under xorg, never heard of dri???
A funny thing with Unix systems is that the low-level binary interfaces "you're not supposed to touch" are actually more trustable than the interfaces you're supposed to use. Libraries tend to change their interfaces every now and then and different versions of the same operating system often have incompatible sets of libraries. However, kernel-level system calls usually retain full binary compatibility, and mature protocols (such as X11 and GLX) don't seem to change very much either.
That is, a statically linked Linux/x86/ELF binary from 1996 will probably work just fine in modern Linux/x86/ELF systems. However, if you try to run a dynamic binary built at the same time, you'll probably need to find a bunch of specific vintage versions of every conceivable library.
A major problem is that people generally don't want to take the special care to ensure the compatibility with different/future systems - they just want their demo shown in the compo. This means that if you want to run a binary-only Linux demo from such a compo at a later time, you'll very probably have to go thru an ENORMOUS hassle to get them to work.
Hardware-level compatibility issues will always be eventually solved by emulators. However, compatibility with binary-only software built for a specific configuration of a non-mainstream operating system will prove to be a far more difficult issue.
That is, a statically linked Linux/x86/ELF binary from 1996 will probably work just fine in modern Linux/x86/ELF systems. However, if you try to run a dynamic binary built at the same time, you'll probably need to find a bunch of specific vintage versions of every conceivable library.
A major problem is that people generally don't want to take the special care to ensure the compatibility with different/future systems - they just want their demo shown in the compo. This means that if you want to run a binary-only Linux demo from such a compo at a later time, you'll very probably have to go thru an ENORMOUS hassle to get them to work.
Hardware-level compatibility issues will always be eventually solved by emulators. However, compatibility with binary-only software built for a specific configuration of a non-mainstream operating system will prove to be a far more difficult issue.
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Gargaj: Probably Paniq is suggesting that shifter shall write those goddamn drivers by himself if he's so insisting on having them ;)
...or purchase a compatible graphics card. i would as well rather use a canadian product than a texan one, but they just work better (at the moment). you could say the same about windows, but then again, the difference is that i can bend an OS to my likings - i can hardly do that with hardware.
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what's wrong with consumer mentality and why should shifter be above that?
as a demoscener, you have already made lots of compromises to get what you want. at some points, you just dont have the chance to say no. you can't say no to hardware-near programming when youre coding for a sizecompo. you can't say no to a certain aspect of ogl or d3d if you want some fast 3d shaders. overall, you have choice in several aspects, but it is the will to compromise with what is available that drives you forward.
insisting stubbornly on a certain feature or quality, and therefore refusing to work just because it is missing will not lead you anywhere.
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There were good approaches to graphics on Linux, like SVGAlib and DirectFB... but the Linux-guys didn't like them and for some strange reason
wrong. svgalib and directfb are alive and kicking on tty0 to tty6 ;) if you have a directfb demo, use that one.
btw, you get hw accel + vsync btw with the nvidia driver. try running nvidia-settings.
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4. You can have direct access under xorg, never heard of dri???
i thought dri is disabled for nvidia?
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This means that if you want to run a binary-only Linux demo from such a compo at a later time, you'll very probably have to go thru an ENORMOUS hassle to get them to work.
viznut, i agree with you in all points.