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I wonder if 64-bit productions should be entered in the same compos as x86 32-bit ones, as instruction words are ( obviously ) relatively bigger in 64, even if you only use 32bit subregisters. But that's not the point actually, i'm talking about native 64-bit demos, using 64-bit addressing, 64-bit binary logic operations etc. That'll dramatically increase file size, which will slightly reduce 4k and 64k quality.
Thus, it doesnt look a good idea to judge both types equally.
I haven't noticed comporules clarifying the situation lately, too.
Should x64 be separated into another platform, having its own compos and ( maybe ) increased size limits, especially for 4k ?

And i'd like it very much to hear what party orgas think.

meh.

erm...

why would you want to use x64 instrs in a 4k?

some 4ks use ~120 or even ~200mb of memory, but not much more than that. and the bigger address space is *the* reason for using 64bit in the first place.

as for 64ks, haven't had a chance to do tests myself yet (i neither have a 64bit cpu nor a suitable compiler right now), but i'm quite certain that after packing it pretty much levels out. 1k or 2k bigger maybe, but nothing to make a new size limit necessary.

especially with most 64ks nowadays not even being 64k big anyway (something i'm not entirely blameless for i guess ;).

if you can't achieve the same quality with 64bit, don't do/use it. as for the rest: i don't care.. nobody changed anything when the world switched from 16bit for 32bit either..

yea, i agree with ryg.. why bother with 64-bit at all?
most is done by the FPU/GPU anyway.. the main CPU is just for logic/memory shuffling... or am I missing something obvious?

but, 64 is BIGGER than 32, so it must be better! for everything!

ah guys, sorry, that's because of my utter incompetence :D just figured it out that 32 bit is natively supported by 64-bit processors. I used to think it's hardware emulated ( like, there's another subprocessor for converting 32 bit instr. into 64 bit ones -> then passing generated instructions to a real 64 bit, which would make it much slower ).

Thus, yes, one could still use 32-bit instructions as ryg pointed, but when we finally come to a 64-bit prod, there'll be different packers, different assembly optimization etc.

We do separate 16 bits from 32 bits in most cases, one being dos apps, another being win/linux apps, dont we ? That's more a software difference than a hardware one, then shouldnt we make Win 64bit platform when time comes ?

in general: I own a amd64 X2 machine (my main coding box) and i had trouble running windows x64 with all my 32-bit apps.. i'd say it's still not mature enough.. i experienced lots of bugs - my debugger wouldn't run, plus all sorts of strange behaviour in my existing code.. so i switched back to old XP..

No we don't, DOS demos have been 32-bit for ages...

Furthermore, like Unlock already pointed out, this discussion is dated. Please visit groups.google.com and do a search on comp.sys.ibm.pc.demos to read back the same discussion about the move from 16 to 32 bit demos (nothing changed)

fadeout: yes, maybe there will be a newly colored windows flag. but i see no reasons for having different rules.

You are saying that prods will be bigger with 64-bit instructions. What about those instructions that actually does the work of, say, 3 32-bit instructions? I don't have any examples, but I am sure there are some. Instruction size "shouldn't matter".

a 4k competition which allows 8k entries.. That doesn't sound right...

Just so you know.

64bit si teh rulez0rxorz!!!!111 that's it, now i'm gonna code a pr0n slideshow on atari jaguar

Right. It should be allowed to release intros with 4k 64 bit long instruction words. And since Wikipedia supports the kibibyte thingy we should define that 4k = 4000. Since 4000 x 64 bit is a number I can't calculate in a drunken state we should make it somewhat easier. 64 bit is about 2/3 of 100 bit and 4000 is about 3/2 of something we should allow something00 bit long intros in the 4k compo.

havoc: You're right. Please provide me with some information, I'd like to join you. :)

It's not that easy to make cool effects with a small amount of bytes on a C64 either, since it takes more instructions to do the same as on PC (no mul/div, and the gfx modes are more cumbersome too) - so can't I get some more bytes for 256b C64 demos too?

Sparcus, i know but you won't deny there's atleast a strong one-side separation : windows == 32bit while dos could be 16 or 32. that's why i said in most cases. Well maybe some early versions of win were 16 bit but who cares then.
And it'll be the same with win64 platform ( if there will be one ). it'll stay for pure 64-bit apps, while 32-bit will be referred as win32 targeted.

I'm not demanding anything, take it easy, just wanted to remind you guys that there _might_ be some nuances. It's better to already have corresponding rules changes when one comes up with a 64-bit prod.
That's it, folks. :)

Graga :


I believe there're very few if any. On the other hand ther're 16 registers instead of 8. Makes sense :D
We need some testing. As i said, just make sure to pay it attention :)

sure, and what about paying attention to 4k-x86-only, 4k-with-fpu, 4k-with-mmx, 4k-with-sse1, 4k-with-sse2, 4k-with-sse3, 4k-with-3dnow and so on. and even 4k-opengl, 4k-directx, 4k-sw, 4k-with-ps, 4k-with-vs and so on. and even 4k-coded-in-c, 4k-coded-in-asm, 4k-coded-in-delphi, 4k-coded-in-basic, 4k-not-coded-at-all and so on. and even 4k-with-2-bytes-left, 4k-packed-with-upx, 4k-packed-with-kkrunchy, 4k-unpacked, 4k-released-at-bp, 4k-released-at-tum, 4k-never-released and so on. oh god, tell me the universal truth and ease my soliloquizing pain...

Anyone knows about the compression rate of 64bit instructions?

64bit is illegal in most countries!

### ILLEGAL 64BIT ###

...what about intros that ll be (or are) coded for ia64?

If you release them at a party you have to follow the party rules. If you release them outside a party or compo you have (nearly) no rules, especially no size limit (but remember that 1 MB is hardly describable as an intro).

If x64 proposes more challenge in 4k and 64k categories, I'd say the productions will be even more interesting.