The demise of Grapevine/Ellesdee - THE FACTS!
category: general [glöplog]
make a meal out of him!
@smash:
Not a problem. At last you appreciate some of my work. =)
Not a problem. At last you appreciate some of my work. =)
truck, that's truth.
a meal? Guten Hunger!
@shane:
There are now a few empty chairs in the UK scene waiting room, if you're interested.
Take 2 Prozac then click join #ukscene
Good luck!
There are now a few empty chairs in the UK scene waiting room, if you're interested.
Take 2 Prozac then click join #ukscene
Good luck!
i'd just like to note that #ukscene is an active channel (at least for its size) with a good friendly atmosphere.. people are helpful, have a good laugh and also work on various scene related stuff together. If people say stuff that other people disagree with, there will be a disagreement, sure. This is normal.
So.. errr.. what exactly is wrong with it??
So.. errr.. what exactly is wrong with it??
They don't like the wall coverings or the drapes. And no one understands them when they drop the soap suggestively. Every 30 seconds. And we let foreigners in.
Yeah, it's nice to hang out there, really!
Ahhhh. It's good to see things haven't changed around here. :D
[THIS WAS ORIGINALLY POSTED ON THE NOW DEAD ELLESSDEE FORUMS BY PAZZA/LSD, THE ORIGINAL EDITOR OF GRAPEVINE. WITHIN 48 HOURS OF HIS POST, ELLESSDEE WHERE SO ASHAMED THEY CLOSED THE SITE DOWN SO NO-ONE COULD READ ANYTHING, THEY MANAGED ABUSE & BITCHING AS A REPLY, BUT COULDNT COME UP WITH EVEN ONE SENSIBLE ARGUMENT TO WHAT PAZZA HAD WROTE.
IF ONE GROUP USES ANOTHERS KEYGEN WITHOUT PERMISSION TO CREATE A SERIAL NUMBER FOR A NEW RELEASE THERE IS A LOT OF SHOUTING & NAME CALLING ABOUT IT, ISNT STEALING THE NAME GRAPEVINE AND HAVING A SOUND-ALIKE GROUP NAME AS BAD, IF NOT WORSE?
I USED GOOGLES CACHE TO LOCATE THE FIRST MESSAGE FROM THE ELLESSDEE BOARD, THEN I RE-POSTED IT TO WWW.SCENE.ORG. HERE IS THE MAIN MESSAGE, WITH ANY INTERESTING REPLIES. I HAVE ALSO ADDED A MESSAGE FROM MAXIMAN/LSD AT THE END I FOUND IN THE GRAPEVINE YAHOO GROUP.
"-=-" IS MY DIVIDER BETWEEN POSTED MESSAGES.]
OVER TO PAZZA
The Bastard ginger-haired stepson is dead - Now lets give the memory of Grapevine what it deserves.
I was Pazza/LSD, a friend of mine posted “This Is All A Bit Lame Isnt It?”, then told me about it. Yes, he is an ex-LSD member and his wishes to remain anonymous should be respected.
So to begin with, how can I prove I am who I claim to be? Im told Monty Python is still about and as hes not so well known on the scene (sorry Alan ) heres some info scenewise probably only Monty Python would remember – MP lodged with me (although I dont recall any rent being paid lol) he had the front bedroom, I had the back bedroom, his dog was called Mima and his girlfriend at the time was called Lisa. He then got his own place with Lisa, and Echo/LSD lodged with them (ill leave the saga here...). My “location” on Skullbuggery BBS was “I Blow Goats” (a joke I decided to keep as it amused me) and we used to rag Fish/LSD as really being the wrestler Hulk Hogan . I hope thats enough.
OK onto why im here - The original Grapevine achieved almost Legendary status in Amiga UK circles, but like all things it eventually died – here lets explore why it died? Because the world had changed, the Internet had become the WWW and disk magazines had became totally pointless, newsgroup access is available to all that want it, any clown can surf to a WWW page. So there was no longer a need for a diskmag from the days 2400 modems where still expensive and 14400 modem users where still elite.
Then a decade later some wannabees decide to resurrect Grapevine, possibly in the hope some of the original GV popularity will rub off on them. WRONG – IT DIDNT – GO AND ACHIEVE SOMETHING WITHOUT RIDING ON THE BACKS OF OTHERS! Calling yourselves a name that sounds like “LSD” and producing a disk magazine called Grapevine doesnt make you part of the scene. Why didnt ex-LSDers come forward? Why didnt ex-UK sceners come forward? Because some no-longer give a **** and because others feel they didnt want some nobodies trying to “be part of us” (I subscribe to somewhere between the two).
If you want to do something creative, then start your own group, which doesnt have the name especially created to be a corruption of another scene groups name. You want a magazine too? Then start one but dont call it Grapevine as you have no right to even hint your piece of shit has anything to do with the original Grapevine, because it doesnt. And while im at it, having members that have names like ex-LSDers it very VERY lame, theres a mention that your ECHO isnt the LSD Echo (now Spoonwizard) and surely the nick DAZZA is supposed to remind you of a Grapevine editor if you change one letter? Sad, Sad, Sad.
I recall some statement on here (or in the new GV) about Sir Garbage Truck being in touch with Shagratt and the Shagster is happy about the use of GVs name – A quick chat to Shagratt soon revealed hes never even heard of “Sir Garbage Truck, SGT, or Truck”, has never said he supports the new GV (cos he doesnt) and feels the same way about the use of the name GV as I do.
I am in touch with some ex-LSDers and I know of quite a few ex LSDers and UK sceners on irc in their own server, as we used to have also. We have deliberately kept away from the “new” GV, because we all believed if you all ignore a lamer he will go away, as will the new GV. And it has. Yippee!
And Nerve Axis wasnt an original UK Amiga group (mentioned in some forum on here earlier), they came to be around the time many original UK groups where already dying including LSD. Although they did provide a useful vessel for Maximan to empty his bag into, Mat may explain
Now respect the name LSD and Grapevine, acknowledge the fact youll never be good enough to be part of it and go forth into the world and do your own thing, like we all have.
PS. I wont be replying to anything in this forum, this is my first, last and only post. My email address isnt real so dont bother – Why? Because im just not interested in looooosers. Respect to all ORIGINAL LSDers and GVers, your names have already become part of something thats a Legend, dont let some wannabee fucks drag you down.
“Grapevine - once a legend, then hi-jacked by lamers, now it can return to the status it had and we can remember it fondly once again.”
All spelling mistakes © Pazza/LSD
PPPPS – This is NOT for publication in anything ran by ELLESSDEE, or included in anything called GRAPEVINE, as I do not wish to be associated with wankers, Ive only posted on this forum because of the wonderful news that the abomination they dare to call Grapevine is finally dead after a pathetic three (count them) issues. It may be included in the Grapevine Mailing list if you REALY want to include it, I dont read that though, ive moved on.
-=-
I have talked to PaZZa about his post on the Ellessdee forum (as above). We would all like to make it clear that the only problems PaZZa (and other ex-LSDers) had with the "new" Grapevine was using our name - using another name for the magazine and we wouldnt have said a word, however it seems that the name was the most important factor to these wannabees, to give people the impression it was an official 100% ex-LSD/ex-GV sanctioned magazine, WHICH IT WASNT IN ANY WAY! Despite the fact Ellessdee had stated they would like some input from ex-LSD or ex-GV people, PaZZa and Shagratt had already came out against the idea of restarting GV well before their first issue was released, but Ellessdee ignored this and went ahead, probably in belief the name GRAPEVINE and its concept where in the public domain - WHICH IT WASNT AND NEVER WILL BE.
We all agree that using a LSD sound-alike name was the height of lameness. We made a name for ourselves through our own hard work, starting with nothing and creating what became almost a Legend in the UK. We did NOT hi-jack someone elses work and tried to continue it badly!
PaZZa has added - himself (main editor), Shagratt (the coder), Scud (part time co-editor) and other ex-GRAPEVINEers and ex-LSDers are AGAINST anyone ressurecting Grapevine again (nomatter who you think you are and what rights you believe you have and what arguments you come up with). Reguards to anyone still interested in GV, but the WWW replaced GV over a decade ago (with sites such as this one), with its accessability to all and information on any subject. If you want a good read, surf to www.google.co.uk and search for whatever you are interested in, I GUARANTEE its all been done before on the internet (if no luck try the newsgroups or the groups ran by sites such as Yahoo etc. failing that the internet is full of forums) and in the unlikely event it hasnt, then there is YOUR reason for having your own web page or blog! Please DONT assume because you once read the original GV, or contributed to it, or even once where an co-editor you have the right to restart it - BECAUSE YOU DONT!
Thanx to those friends who are "always lurking" and keep us informed of anything worth looking into.
A Last word from PaZZa - I truly hope I never have to emerge again to defend Grapevines memory, or even use the name "PaZZa" - Ive moved on, no-one can bring back the Amiga scene from the early 90s! Im now crawling back under the stone I came from.
Typed by an ex-LSD member after a further conversation with PaZZa, hes read this and is happy with its post.
[GARBAGETRUCK ASKED ABOUT ROAR IN A REPLY, HERES WHAT WAS SAID...]
Garbagetruck - The text magazine your thinking of was called ROAR (the lion you are probably thinking of was an ascii Lion PaZZa used as a logo), most people on the scene guessed it was by PaZZa - and of course it was - but it was nothing to do with LSD of course. I understand PaZZa has all copies somewhere still, ill do my best to snarf them, but dont hold your breath.
-=-
PaZZa (main editor of GV & LSD manager at the time of GV) and Shagratt (main coder of GV, plus coder of classics like "Jesus On Es" etc.) had already stated BEFORE the new GV #1 was released that they where both against the idea of them using the GV name, but ellessdee shouted them down, deciding that the name GRAPEVINE and its look and feel where public domain - and they never where. They and other ex-LSDers just want it clear to the scene it was not sanctioned or supported by ex-LSD and they sincerly hope that no-one else will try to revive GV again, like the Amiga, its dead FULL STOP. We all hope this episode in GVs "life" is now over for good.
I hear the Pendle Europa Amiga utility floppies arent produced anymore, maybe ellessdee could change their name to "Pindel Eroopa" and instead of being produced by Manny, Dazza could be Danny. Silly isnt it, but thats exactly what happened with GV!
-=-
[IN MAY 2003 MAXIMAN/LSD POSTED THIS TO THE GRAPEVINE YAHOO GROUP / GV MAILING LIST...]
The sooner this Yahoogroup is killed, the better.
So many years down the line, I have absolutely no idea why anyone would want to attempt to resurrect Grapevine magazine today, especially when whatever is produced is most likely going to be a shadow travesty of the "glory days" of the magazine when it was on the Amiga. Anything that has been attempted so far has only appeared to soil the name and reputation that the magazine nurutred int he first place.
There is no scene to speak of anymore, and the main appeal of Grapevine - it's diversity of articles and subjects - has been replaced by a prevalence on the web of specialised sites and groups for the topics (and more) that Grapevine used to cover.
Aside from the nostalgic motivation to resurrect Grapevine, I have to say it's a pretty fruitless exercise to undertake, particularly when you have no clear way forward, no obvious (and captive) target audience, and no real source of articles - aside from the web, and that is just pure plaguarism.
If you want to produce another magazine, then good for you. Go for it. Just don't slap the name "Grapevine" on it and expect it to be a success, or to be appreciated by those who put the effort into the original Grapevine in the first place.
MaXimaN/LSD.
[SO IS THERE >>ANYONE<< OUT THERE THAT WAS BEHIND THE ORIGINAL LSD GRAPVINE THAT SUPPORTED THE NEw GRAPEVINE? WHY DID WE ALLOW THESE LAMERS TO SPOIL A LEGEND WITH THEIR THIRD RATE CRAP? YOU CANT PUSH YOUR WAY INTO THE SCENE BY PRETENDING TO BE PART OF IT, BECAUSE ELLESSDEE ARE NOT & NEVER WILL BE.
TO QUOTE SOMETHING PAZZA ONCE SAID - SOME PEOPLE ARE BORN LAME, SOME BECOME LAME & SOME HAVE LAMENESS THRUST UPON THEM - WHERE DO THE ELLESSDEE WANNA-BES FALL?
D-MAN/COMBAT 18
PS- PAZZA CONTACT ME ASAP]
IF ONE GROUP USES ANOTHERS KEYGEN WITHOUT PERMISSION TO CREATE A SERIAL NUMBER FOR A NEW RELEASE THERE IS A LOT OF SHOUTING & NAME CALLING ABOUT IT, ISNT STEALING THE NAME GRAPEVINE AND HAVING A SOUND-ALIKE GROUP NAME AS BAD, IF NOT WORSE?
I USED GOOGLES CACHE TO LOCATE THE FIRST MESSAGE FROM THE ELLESSDEE BOARD, THEN I RE-POSTED IT TO WWW.SCENE.ORG. HERE IS THE MAIN MESSAGE, WITH ANY INTERESTING REPLIES. I HAVE ALSO ADDED A MESSAGE FROM MAXIMAN/LSD AT THE END I FOUND IN THE GRAPEVINE YAHOO GROUP.
"-=-" IS MY DIVIDER BETWEEN POSTED MESSAGES.]
OVER TO PAZZA
The Bastard ginger-haired stepson is dead - Now lets give the memory of Grapevine what it deserves.
I was Pazza/LSD, a friend of mine posted “This Is All A Bit Lame Isnt It?”, then told me about it. Yes, he is an ex-LSD member and his wishes to remain anonymous should be respected.
So to begin with, how can I prove I am who I claim to be? Im told Monty Python is still about and as hes not so well known on the scene (sorry Alan ) heres some info scenewise probably only Monty Python would remember – MP lodged with me (although I dont recall any rent being paid lol) he had the front bedroom, I had the back bedroom, his dog was called Mima and his girlfriend at the time was called Lisa. He then got his own place with Lisa, and Echo/LSD lodged with them (ill leave the saga here...). My “location” on Skullbuggery BBS was “I Blow Goats” (a joke I decided to keep as it amused me) and we used to rag Fish/LSD as really being the wrestler Hulk Hogan . I hope thats enough.
OK onto why im here - The original Grapevine achieved almost Legendary status in Amiga UK circles, but like all things it eventually died – here lets explore why it died? Because the world had changed, the Internet had become the WWW and disk magazines had became totally pointless, newsgroup access is available to all that want it, any clown can surf to a WWW page. So there was no longer a need for a diskmag from the days 2400 modems where still expensive and 14400 modem users where still elite.
Then a decade later some wannabees decide to resurrect Grapevine, possibly in the hope some of the original GV popularity will rub off on them. WRONG – IT DIDNT – GO AND ACHIEVE SOMETHING WITHOUT RIDING ON THE BACKS OF OTHERS! Calling yourselves a name that sounds like “LSD” and producing a disk magazine called Grapevine doesnt make you part of the scene. Why didnt ex-LSDers come forward? Why didnt ex-UK sceners come forward? Because some no-longer give a **** and because others feel they didnt want some nobodies trying to “be part of us” (I subscribe to somewhere between the two).
If you want to do something creative, then start your own group, which doesnt have the name especially created to be a corruption of another scene groups name. You want a magazine too? Then start one but dont call it Grapevine as you have no right to even hint your piece of shit has anything to do with the original Grapevine, because it doesnt. And while im at it, having members that have names like ex-LSDers it very VERY lame, theres a mention that your ECHO isnt the LSD Echo (now Spoonwizard) and surely the nick DAZZA is supposed to remind you of a Grapevine editor if you change one letter? Sad, Sad, Sad.
I recall some statement on here (or in the new GV) about Sir Garbage Truck being in touch with Shagratt and the Shagster is happy about the use of GVs name – A quick chat to Shagratt soon revealed hes never even heard of “Sir Garbage Truck, SGT, or Truck”, has never said he supports the new GV (cos he doesnt) and feels the same way about the use of the name GV as I do.
I am in touch with some ex-LSDers and I know of quite a few ex LSDers and UK sceners on irc in their own server, as we used to have also. We have deliberately kept away from the “new” GV, because we all believed if you all ignore a lamer he will go away, as will the new GV. And it has. Yippee!
And Nerve Axis wasnt an original UK Amiga group (mentioned in some forum on here earlier), they came to be around the time many original UK groups where already dying including LSD. Although they did provide a useful vessel for Maximan to empty his bag into, Mat may explain
Now respect the name LSD and Grapevine, acknowledge the fact youll never be good enough to be part of it and go forth into the world and do your own thing, like we all have.
PS. I wont be replying to anything in this forum, this is my first, last and only post. My email address isnt real so dont bother – Why? Because im just not interested in looooosers. Respect to all ORIGINAL LSDers and GVers, your names have already become part of something thats a Legend, dont let some wannabee fucks drag you down.
“Grapevine - once a legend, then hi-jacked by lamers, now it can return to the status it had and we can remember it fondly once again.”
All spelling mistakes © Pazza/LSD
PPPPS – This is NOT for publication in anything ran by ELLESSDEE, or included in anything called GRAPEVINE, as I do not wish to be associated with wankers, Ive only posted on this forum because of the wonderful news that the abomination they dare to call Grapevine is finally dead after a pathetic three (count them) issues. It may be included in the Grapevine Mailing list if you REALY want to include it, I dont read that though, ive moved on.
-=-
I have talked to PaZZa about his post on the Ellessdee forum (as above). We would all like to make it clear that the only problems PaZZa (and other ex-LSDers) had with the "new" Grapevine was using our name - using another name for the magazine and we wouldnt have said a word, however it seems that the name was the most important factor to these wannabees, to give people the impression it was an official 100% ex-LSD/ex-GV sanctioned magazine, WHICH IT WASNT IN ANY WAY! Despite the fact Ellessdee had stated they would like some input from ex-LSD or ex-GV people, PaZZa and Shagratt had already came out against the idea of restarting GV well before their first issue was released, but Ellessdee ignored this and went ahead, probably in belief the name GRAPEVINE and its concept where in the public domain - WHICH IT WASNT AND NEVER WILL BE.
We all agree that using a LSD sound-alike name was the height of lameness. We made a name for ourselves through our own hard work, starting with nothing and creating what became almost a Legend in the UK. We did NOT hi-jack someone elses work and tried to continue it badly!
PaZZa has added - himself (main editor), Shagratt (the coder), Scud (part time co-editor) and other ex-GRAPEVINEers and ex-LSDers are AGAINST anyone ressurecting Grapevine again (nomatter who you think you are and what rights you believe you have and what arguments you come up with). Reguards to anyone still interested in GV, but the WWW replaced GV over a decade ago (with sites such as this one), with its accessability to all and information on any subject. If you want a good read, surf to www.google.co.uk and search for whatever you are interested in, I GUARANTEE its all been done before on the internet (if no luck try the newsgroups or the groups ran by sites such as Yahoo etc. failing that the internet is full of forums) and in the unlikely event it hasnt, then there is YOUR reason for having your own web page or blog! Please DONT assume because you once read the original GV, or contributed to it, or even once where an co-editor you have the right to restart it - BECAUSE YOU DONT!
Thanx to those friends who are "always lurking" and keep us informed of anything worth looking into.
A Last word from PaZZa - I truly hope I never have to emerge again to defend Grapevines memory, or even use the name "PaZZa" - Ive moved on, no-one can bring back the Amiga scene from the early 90s! Im now crawling back under the stone I came from.
Typed by an ex-LSD member after a further conversation with PaZZa, hes read this and is happy with its post.
[GARBAGETRUCK ASKED ABOUT ROAR IN A REPLY, HERES WHAT WAS SAID...]
Garbagetruck - The text magazine your thinking of was called ROAR (the lion you are probably thinking of was an ascii Lion PaZZa used as a logo), most people on the scene guessed it was by PaZZa - and of course it was - but it was nothing to do with LSD of course. I understand PaZZa has all copies somewhere still, ill do my best to snarf them, but dont hold your breath.
-=-
PaZZa (main editor of GV & LSD manager at the time of GV) and Shagratt (main coder of GV, plus coder of classics like "Jesus On Es" etc.) had already stated BEFORE the new GV #1 was released that they where both against the idea of them using the GV name, but ellessdee shouted them down, deciding that the name GRAPEVINE and its look and feel where public domain - and they never where. They and other ex-LSDers just want it clear to the scene it was not sanctioned or supported by ex-LSD and they sincerly hope that no-one else will try to revive GV again, like the Amiga, its dead FULL STOP. We all hope this episode in GVs "life" is now over for good.
I hear the Pendle Europa Amiga utility floppies arent produced anymore, maybe ellessdee could change their name to "Pindel Eroopa" and instead of being produced by Manny, Dazza could be Danny. Silly isnt it, but thats exactly what happened with GV!
-=-
[IN MAY 2003 MAXIMAN/LSD POSTED THIS TO THE GRAPEVINE YAHOO GROUP / GV MAILING LIST...]
The sooner this Yahoogroup is killed, the better.
So many years down the line, I have absolutely no idea why anyone would want to attempt to resurrect Grapevine magazine today, especially when whatever is produced is most likely going to be a shadow travesty of the "glory days" of the magazine when it was on the Amiga. Anything that has been attempted so far has only appeared to soil the name and reputation that the magazine nurutred int he first place.
There is no scene to speak of anymore, and the main appeal of Grapevine - it's diversity of articles and subjects - has been replaced by a prevalence on the web of specialised sites and groups for the topics (and more) that Grapevine used to cover.
Aside from the nostalgic motivation to resurrect Grapevine, I have to say it's a pretty fruitless exercise to undertake, particularly when you have no clear way forward, no obvious (and captive) target audience, and no real source of articles - aside from the web, and that is just pure plaguarism.
If you want to produce another magazine, then good for you. Go for it. Just don't slap the name "Grapevine" on it and expect it to be a success, or to be appreciated by those who put the effort into the original Grapevine in the first place.
MaXimaN/LSD.
[SO IS THERE >>ANYONE<< OUT THERE THAT WAS BEHIND THE ORIGINAL LSD GRAPVINE THAT SUPPORTED THE NEw GRAPEVINE? WHY DID WE ALLOW THESE LAMERS TO SPOIL A LEGEND WITH THEIR THIRD RATE CRAP? YOU CANT PUSH YOUR WAY INTO THE SCENE BY PRETENDING TO BE PART OF IT, BECAUSE ELLESSDEE ARE NOT & NEVER WILL BE.
TO QUOTE SOMETHING PAZZA ONCE SAID - SOME PEOPLE ARE BORN LAME, SOME BECOME LAME & SOME HAVE LAMENESS THRUST UPON THEM - WHERE DO THE ELLESSDEE WANNA-BES FALL?
D-MAN/COMBAT 18
PS- PAZZA CONTACT ME ASAP]
"combat 18"?...
hitler was a pussy compared to constantine!
Now that i think about it, all these cretins using uk flags as avatars...
the only good fascist is a very dead fascist!
the only good fascist is the one biting the sidewalk.
If its that combat 18, I'd welcome an ESD comeback instead.
"If its that combat 18"
yeah, i bet he named himself after the combat 18 that's famous for helping grannies cross the street... wtf are you talking about?!
yeah, i bet he named himself after the combat 18 that's famous for helping grannies cross the street... wtf are you talking about?!
I still remember the GV article about Dman and Combat18. The dude is a proud racist.
Yes, even England has backward thinking rednecks!
Yes, even England has backward thinking rednecks!
Dman bringing up old news on yet another forum...
Boring......
ESD is gone
GV revival is gone
This thread even died for a few weeks until he decided to stir it some more ....
Dman sux and isnt LSD for years as he was KICKED OUT of the the group LOL
He comes to the scene claiming LSD are making a comeback and will be releaseing something really special .. hahaha!!!!!
I have nothing against LSD and would look forward to a release by them but i think dman is just too full of shit STILL!
Boring......
ESD is gone
GV revival is gone
This thread even died for a few weeks until he decided to stir it some more ....
Dman sux and isnt LSD for years as he was KICKED OUT of the the group LOL
He comes to the scene claiming LSD are making a comeback and will be releaseing something really special .. hahaha!!!!!
I have nothing against LSD and would look forward to a release by them but i think dman is just too full of shit STILL!
Also, anyone wanting to sit on Dman.
I get firsts.
I've had dibs for over 10 years.
I get firsts.
I've had dibs for over 10 years.
Old, tired thread - please kill it!
Dman: you have just given the phrase LAMENESS a whole new meaning.
Dman: you have just given the phrase LAMENESS a whole new meaning.
havoc: well.. its entirely possible the somebody could have either heard the name combat 18 before or come up with it on their own, and used it with no knowledge of what combat 18 stands for. Just take a look around here at some of the moronitis victims, it's entirely believable.
But considering what others have said, its obvious enough. So fuckings to dman.
But considering what others have said, its obvious enough. So fuckings to dman.
Oh, I remember conversations with Dman where he would proudly tell me all about how Combat 18 was racist and how the 18 stood for Adolf Hitler, and my going 'and you manage to survive getting beaten senseless daily how?' but then that's what we all said about him at the time.
I forget which party it was he showed up at and escaped through the bathroom window, after various people offered him a severe beating. Now that's hearsay, but I truly do believe it based on ... well, having spoken with him.
I forget which party it was he showed up at and escaped through the bathroom window, after various people offered him a severe beating. Now that's hearsay, but I truly do believe it based on ... well, having spoken with him.
i really hate bumping this thread... but someone confirm/not confirm that this d-man is/is not dman-rj who iirc is usually on pixel and thescene?
