untergrund.net news/updates/questions
category: general [glöplog]
scamp: any chance of addressing my question above?
Yes, that's possible. You could have done that when you did your account registration.
However, untergrund.net is really, really, REALLY old. If you would use your own domain there would be no SSL certificate for it.
It therefore would be easier to buy a custom domain and have it redirect to your untergrund.net page instead.
In the long term untergrund.net is going to be retired, become read-only, and is to be replaced with a new server and service. The system code is over 20 years old now, and it shows...
However, untergrund.net is really, really, REALLY old. If you would use your own domain there would be no SSL certificate for it.
It therefore would be easier to buy a custom domain and have it redirect to your untergrund.net page instead.
In the long term untergrund.net is going to be retired, become read-only, and is to be replaced with a new server and service. The system code is over 20 years old now, and it shows...
untergrund.net will become read-only from December 15h 2024
If you have an account there, here is what you need to do:
1.) If your site is purely static, meaning it does not use PHP nor MySql or server-side-includes, you don't need to do anything. Your site will be archived and will still work.
2.) You no longer can FTP to your site from Dec 15th. If you would like to delete stuff so it's not archived forever, or if you stored stuff there outside of the webspace you wish to backup, do that before Dec 15h.
3.) If you have a site that is mostly static, but still uses PHP for minimal things like updating a counter, convert and rename your *.php to *.html.
4.) If you have a site that is dynamic (PHP/Mysql) and have the skills to do that, please make it static.
5.) If you have a site that is dynamic (PHP/Mysql) and you do not have the skills to do the conversion yourself: There is an archiving project run by some sceners who may be able to help. You can ask here in this thread.
6.) The email system will stop working. As it's POP3 you probably have all your mails. If you absolutely need a redirect from your old untergrund.net mail address to a different one, tell us before Dec 15th.
7.) Everything that is on ftp.untergrund.net, no matter what protocol type it was linked to will stay intact and you don't need to do anything. This applies if you have linked your downloads on your website to "https://ftp.untergrund.net/users/..." or "ftp://ftp.untergrund.net/users/". If you have stored downloads inside your pubhtml dir, see above.
8.) However, the FTP also will turn read-only. If you wish to add or remove files from there, please do it before 15th.
If you do NOT run a site, but know of a site that is important to the scene but know the account holder is gone (for example: deceased), see 5.).
Any questions? Shoot.
If you have an account there, here is what you need to do:
1.) If your site is purely static, meaning it does not use PHP nor MySql or server-side-includes, you don't need to do anything. Your site will be archived and will still work.
2.) You no longer can FTP to your site from Dec 15th. If you would like to delete stuff so it's not archived forever, or if you stored stuff there outside of the webspace you wish to backup, do that before Dec 15h.
3.) If you have a site that is mostly static, but still uses PHP for minimal things like updating a counter, convert and rename your *.php to *.html.
4.) If you have a site that is dynamic (PHP/Mysql) and have the skills to do that, please make it static.
5.) If you have a site that is dynamic (PHP/Mysql) and you do not have the skills to do the conversion yourself: There is an archiving project run by some sceners who may be able to help. You can ask here in this thread.
6.) The email system will stop working. As it's POP3 you probably have all your mails. If you absolutely need a redirect from your old untergrund.net mail address to a different one, tell us before Dec 15th.
7.) Everything that is on ftp.untergrund.net, no matter what protocol type it was linked to will stay intact and you don't need to do anything. This applies if you have linked your downloads on your website to "https://ftp.untergrund.net/users/..." or "ftp://ftp.untergrund.net/users/". If you have stored downloads inside your pubhtml dir, see above.
8.) However, the FTP also will turn read-only. If you wish to add or remove files from there, please do it before 15th.
If you do NOT run a site, but know of a site that is important to the scene but know the account holder is gone (for example: deceased), see 5.).
Any questions? Shoot.
Funny think @Scamp is...
i´m like you porn... ae... born in the Year 1977.
Funny is also that during my Rehab few years ago to recover after my mother died in the corona phase (which made it impossible apart from 3 vaccinations and they still forced me to do a quick test which made me come to late to stay with her in the dying phase) and all other things i must solve as the last one left after this)
During this stay at the rehab for 6 weeks, i did physical exercises as well as mental ones. I was also diagnosed some kind auf autism because i need sometimes isolation, at times i also be on my own and have a strong trend for objects and similar stuff etc. and showing symptoms (even if not the complete adventure park but enough to fix the diagnosis afterwards.)
Also funny, i´m active since 1988 and being later active as a SysOp for decades, like you :). I have also a love for server things, servers are logical, they cold be craft step by step and its a joy to get lost deep in config lists, domain setups, PHP optimization, build structures with a crazy order (my staff is often annoyed because i super sort and segment things regarding to files, directories etc :)
It seems my autism is smaller like yours, i have only 2 linux boxes instead your 12 boxes. So i think you must be very hard affected by this autism ;)
Some things are different compared between you and me. I love at times the presence of my friends, being very communicative and also a social builder and connector whilst otherwise, i´m also overthinking things, making up a mind of everything. I dislike new places and for me, it´s stress if i move to new areas, let´s say more far away from my home city... but i overcame this, do such travel things despite its forcing and takes energy. I have fun with numbers, loving to observe similar patterns or try to find patterns in a bigger scheme. It´s not easy to be true with that, the same that from time to time, depressions hit me hard, and i mean very hard !
Despite that, i´m counted as a strong so called leaders or organizer, as we say nowadays. I never ! left my group TRISTAR, TSA ... I´m somewhat you would call faithful. I stick to my crowd !
Yes... I can feel your pain scamp. For me, i was very into my Amiga Stuff, Scene was something that gave me a warm cocoon and a destiny which i still love till today but never received any bad vibes from other persons in the "normal world".I build a strong friendship, but i did not not know, why i feel a bit "offtopic" to my good friends. Back than, they said. He is hyperactive, or he couldn´t focus for a longer time on things. Similar to you. I got my diagnosis very late - in early 2022
it´s not an excuse to be a dick in per se and also not an excuse to see everywhere enemies where are none exists. But it´s important that the audience understand, that this is a burden, that we suffer under those limitations by doing everything to have the best outcome possible.
I can assure to each scener, that autism is even with not all aspects is forcing. And also, that scamp often did simple not noticed or understand, that he exceeded some things. I believe also that he worked out some things and this is not not easy. autism is a illness the same like you suffer under depressions.
I for myself made my way out of it. But it´s a part of my life and will stay. Life is still beautiful, i got friends, builded a complete makerspace with friends around that TSA thing and being over 30 years employed. Also became a Works Council, take over there the data protection tasks. But, this shit persists, it´s a battle at times.
We all show respect for every sexual preference, religion... Show also the same respect for this disease. And for scamp, after reading all the statements here i don´t think that you stay in such a bad light as you might think. The same as i am very confident that you belong to this scene. You gave them all very much, this was and is your way to show your love. Try to be more polite, continue to work on yourself, as far as it´s possible. People with autism could be stressful at times but most have a good heart apart from acting sometimes as a dick. Just point kindly on such bad behave the same you need patience.
Be kind ! to each other ! and best wishes from a part time autism ;) to a full worker autism.
i´m like you porn... ae... born in the Year 1977.
Funny is also that during my Rehab few years ago to recover after my mother died in the corona phase (which made it impossible apart from 3 vaccinations and they still forced me to do a quick test which made me come to late to stay with her in the dying phase) and all other things i must solve as the last one left after this)
During this stay at the rehab for 6 weeks, i did physical exercises as well as mental ones. I was also diagnosed some kind auf autism because i need sometimes isolation, at times i also be on my own and have a strong trend for objects and similar stuff etc. and showing symptoms (even if not the complete adventure park but enough to fix the diagnosis afterwards.)
Also funny, i´m active since 1988 and being later active as a SysOp for decades, like you :). I have also a love for server things, servers are logical, they cold be craft step by step and its a joy to get lost deep in config lists, domain setups, PHP optimization, build structures with a crazy order (my staff is often annoyed because i super sort and segment things regarding to files, directories etc :)
It seems my autism is smaller like yours, i have only 2 linux boxes instead your 12 boxes. So i think you must be very hard affected by this autism ;)
Some things are different compared between you and me. I love at times the presence of my friends, being very communicative and also a social builder and connector whilst otherwise, i´m also overthinking things, making up a mind of everything. I dislike new places and for me, it´s stress if i move to new areas, let´s say more far away from my home city... but i overcame this, do such travel things despite its forcing and takes energy. I have fun with numbers, loving to observe similar patterns or try to find patterns in a bigger scheme. It´s not easy to be true with that, the same that from time to time, depressions hit me hard, and i mean very hard !
Despite that, i´m counted as a strong so called leaders or organizer, as we say nowadays. I never ! left my group TRISTAR, TSA ... I´m somewhat you would call faithful. I stick to my crowd !
Yes... I can feel your pain scamp. For me, i was very into my Amiga Stuff, Scene was something that gave me a warm cocoon and a destiny which i still love till today but never received any bad vibes from other persons in the "normal world".I build a strong friendship, but i did not not know, why i feel a bit "offtopic" to my good friends. Back than, they said. He is hyperactive, or he couldn´t focus for a longer time on things. Similar to you. I got my diagnosis very late - in early 2022
it´s not an excuse to be a dick in per se and also not an excuse to see everywhere enemies where are none exists. But it´s important that the audience understand, that this is a burden, that we suffer under those limitations by doing everything to have the best outcome possible.
I can assure to each scener, that autism is even with not all aspects is forcing. And also, that scamp often did simple not noticed or understand, that he exceeded some things. I believe also that he worked out some things and this is not not easy. autism is a illness the same like you suffer under depressions.
I for myself made my way out of it. But it´s a part of my life and will stay. Life is still beautiful, i got friends, builded a complete makerspace with friends around that TSA thing and being over 30 years employed. Also became a Works Council, take over there the data protection tasks. But, this shit persists, it´s a battle at times.
We all show respect for every sexual preference, religion... Show also the same respect for this disease. And for scamp, after reading all the statements here i don´t think that you stay in such a bad light as you might think. The same as i am very confident that you belong to this scene. You gave them all very much, this was and is your way to show your love. Try to be more polite, continue to work on yourself, as far as it´s possible. People with autism could be stressful at times but most have a good heart apart from acting sometimes as a dick. Just point kindly on such bad behave the same you need patience.
Be kind ! to each other ! and best wishes from a part time autism ;) to a full worker autism.
I was ~18 years old when I understood the concept of "other humans have feelings".
I was ~38 years old when I first went to a doctor on this.
I was ~43 years old when I first the first time during an Acid trip on a Techno festival felt empathy for another human (and it was absolutely mindblowing).
Until four years ago on average I got sued 3-4 times per year based on the way I communicated with business partners or shareholders.
So, yeah. You can work on that, but if you can only EMULATE things like having eye contact or empathy and all that, it's never perfect. F2F I have learned how to parse emotions better, via text communication it is completely impossible because I would have to make assumptions about other people's feelings without having any visual cues.
Anyway: You can not expect your peers to be able to handle any defect you may have. And sometimes stuff you do really is just a dick move. That's certainly the case for myself.
But... I think this is not a good place to discuss autism, let's continue on either IRC or SceneCity (oh, the irony).
I would like this thread to return to the challenge of archiving untergrund.net.
And I'll shut up for a bit again to not further drown stuff in my wall-of-texts.
I was ~38 years old when I first went to a doctor on this.
I was ~43 years old when I first the first time during an Acid trip on a Techno festival felt empathy for another human (and it was absolutely mindblowing).
Until four years ago on average I got sued 3-4 times per year based on the way I communicated with business partners or shareholders.
So, yeah. You can work on that, but if you can only EMULATE things like having eye contact or empathy and all that, it's never perfect. F2F I have learned how to parse emotions better, via text communication it is completely impossible because I would have to make assumptions about other people's feelings without having any visual cues.
Anyway: You can not expect your peers to be able to handle any defect you may have. And sometimes stuff you do really is just a dick move. That's certainly the case for myself.
But... I think this is not a good place to discuss autism, let's continue on either IRC or SceneCity (oh, the irony).
I would like this thread to return to the challenge of archiving untergrund.net.
And I'll shut up for a bit again to not further drown stuff in my wall-of-texts.
How much data in total FTP has if one wanted to mirror it for preservation?
@Scamp
That´s ok or on the next Evoke where we could seat down, drink some beer and just talking.
Maybe a short trip for relaxing to the sea or so might be a good idea....for you...for Gargaj...even for some of us.
That´s ok or on the next Evoke where we could seat down, drink some beer and just talking.
Maybe a short trip for relaxing to the sea or so might be a good idea....for you...for Gargaj...even for some of us.
hollowone: 933GB (FTP without webspace).
We did have mirrors in the past, but I think the last one died 10 years ago or so...
(But of course there are backups every night.)
We did have mirrors in the past, but I think the last one died 10 years ago or so...
(But of course there are backups every night.)
Please however before anyone leeches a full mirror: Contact me in regards of bandwidth management, and rsync makes more sense than crawling.
I'll be happy to set up a mirror with nightly rsync, should it be desired. It will live nicely next to the ftp.no.scene.org directory.
I don't believe anything scamp says about cooperation, so I downloaded all of ftp.untergrund.net and made a torrent:
http://176.126.86.160/ftp.untergrund.net.20241018.torrent
This is ftp.untergrund.net only (not the web hosting space) - and excluding the files that can't be downloaded from the anonymous account. These files can't be downloaded from http either. I kept wget's .listing files, since they contain metadata that's not otherwise preserved.
FTP doesn't check file integrity very well, so if scamp does give someone rsync access, that would be better.
http://176.126.86.160/ftp.untergrund.net.20241018.torrent
This is ftp.untergrund.net only (not the web hosting space) - and excluding the files that can't be downloaded from the anonymous account. These files can't be downloaded from http either. I kept wget's .listing files, since they contain metadata that's not otherwise preserved.
FTP doesn't check file integrity very well, so if scamp does give someone rsync access, that would be better.
sesse: Would that be a permanent mirror "forever" that I could also put into a round robin DNS or something? That would make the upcoming datacenter migration I have to do less stressful in regards of not having downtime.
Hit me up via IRC or SC for rsync credentials.
Hit me up via IRC or SC for rsync credentials.
I can make a permanent mirror, sure. Since FTP does not support vhosts, you cannot point ftp.untergrund.net there (that is taken for ftp.no.scene.org and ftp.gathering.org, which has a different directory structure), but for HTTPS, I can serve files just fine under whatever hostname I can make a certificate for.
sesse: Ok, we will continue on IRC.
Are you running a still active/updated dynamic website on untergrund.net?
In general untergrund.net will turn read-only/static from December on. This way we can retire the old server and management system and move everything to a modern server.
However, as it turned out in threads here on pouet, there still are active sites that are updated. If you have such a site we can offer to manually provide hosting on a modern server with modern OS/MySQL/PHP.
If this is the case, please contact me in November latest.
In general untergrund.net will turn read-only/static from December on. This way we can retire the old server and management system and move everything to a modern server.
However, as it turned out in threads here on pouet, there still are active sites that are updated. If you have such a site we can offer to manually provide hosting on a modern server with modern OS/MySQL/PHP.
If this is the case, please contact me in November latest.
as for deadline, we moved this year to a managed wordpress hosting. all sites (up to 2023) on untergrund.net are static and can remain in the read only archive :)
Thanks a lot for the webspace, it always worked well for us! <3
Thanks a lot for the webspace, it always worked well for us! <3
I'm still using my account to store mostly intros i extract from games, tools and obscure stuff i can't find anywhere else + some prods videos & reference them here. Our site is only using 1 single static html page with some pictures for NRL prods.
Ok, this totally wasn't expected - lots of people who are saying that they still are actively maintaining a website on untergrund.net popping up here, on SceneCity and via email.
Obviously the feedback on the infrastructure thread was not representative, and there still is demand for demoscene hosting services.
Therefore I will change the plan radically:
Active sites untergrund.net will move to a new, modern server
As mentioned above, all sites that are no longer updated will be archived as read-only static HTML. See the various notes above.
However, active sites that still have an active admin will NOT become read-only. Instead these sites will move to a brand-new server using modern shared hosting software.
You will have all the modern features that you would expect from a current webhosting platform. You may have to update your scripts for the PHP version from the current decade. However, your *.untergrund.net subdomain and all links to it will stay intact.
So, in the end untergrund.net will be split into two systems: Non-maintained sites will move to a system serving those sites as an archive. Maintained sites will move to another server.
This plan still allows me to finally retire the 15 year old servers during our move to a new datacenter, which was my main goal.
Obviously the feedback on the infrastructure thread was not representative, and there still is demand for demoscene hosting services.
Therefore I will change the plan radically:
Active sites untergrund.net will move to a new, modern server
As mentioned above, all sites that are no longer updated will be archived as read-only static HTML. See the various notes above.
However, active sites that still have an active admin will NOT become read-only. Instead these sites will move to a brand-new server using modern shared hosting software.
You will have all the modern features that you would expect from a current webhosting platform. You may have to update your scripts for the PHP version from the current decade. However, your *.untergrund.net subdomain and all links to it will stay intact.
So, in the end untergrund.net will be split into two systems: Non-maintained sites will move to a system serving those sites as an archive. Maintained sites will move to another server.
This plan still allows me to finally retire the 15 year old servers during our move to a new datacenter, which was my main goal.
A question: would we be able to take down the site in the future, in the archived version of untergrund.net? The Traction website hasn't been updated in a decade or so and I have no intentions of making a new one at this point, but if we wanted to make a new one at some point and take down the obsolete one, how should we proceed?
Thank you so much for hosting us all these years!
Thank you so much for hosting us all these years!
Thanks for all those years of hosting and supporting / organizing parties, Scamp!
Untergrund.net was a real godsend for me back then when I looked for a place to store all those demo captures and host wurstcaptures and It has been working pretty flawlessly in all those years!
I'd be fine with the site being achieved. That will at least keep the video links on pouet from breaking.
Untergrund.net was a real godsend for me back then when I looked for a place to store all those demo captures and host wurstcaptures and It has been working pretty flawlessly in all those years!
I'd be fine with the site being achieved. That will at least keep the video links on pouet from breaking.
thanks for providing this big piece of scene infrastructure ;)
farewell old servers & long live new servers!
farewell old servers & long live new servers!
Thanks for everything scamp, and if you do decide to keep some sites active, thanks for that too! I'd like to update my humble repository of mods regardless of whether it gets archived or not, but I've lost access some time over the past few years...
I've emailed you to ask for a password reset, if you've got time to look into it, and hopefully this message is proof that I am who I say I am...
I've emailed you to ask for a password reset, if you've got time to look into it, and hopefully this message is proof that I am who I say I am...
I would consider my site "active" :)
There is now a beta-quality mirror at:
https://ftp.no.scene.org/ftp.untergrund.net/
It's updating nightly, assuming everything works as planned. It is reachable over HTTPS, FTP and rsync, as all the other mirrors.
It is likely that there will be some dedicated hostname for it at some point, but at least there is now insurance against most types of catastrophes. (I do not take backup of it, though; my assumption with mirrors is that one can always get a new copy if the RAID or file system goes south.)
https://ftp.no.scene.org/ftp.untergrund.net/
It's updating nightly, assuming everything works as planned. It is reachable over HTTPS, FTP and rsync, as all the other mirrors.
It is likely that there will be some dedicated hostname for it at some point, but at least there is now insurance against most types of catastrophes. (I do not take backup of it, though; my assumption with mirrors is that one can always get a new copy if the RAID or file system goes south.)
Quote:
I'm still using my account to store mostly intros i extract from games, tools and obscure stuff i can't find anywhere else + some prods videos & reference them here. Our site is only using 1 single static html page with some pictures for NRL prods.
It's almost exactly the same for me.
