AI crap in compo entries?
category: general [glöplog]
Thousands of artists having a personal response. I'm not saying I don't understand it, or sympathise. But I just can't get the visceral offence responses, or the furious downthumbing of the prod that sparked all of this.
The prod in question may not be for everyone, but set out to do something technically and to an extent conceptually original and succeeded. It doesn't devalue anything in doing so, including hand drawn pixel art - this is clearly apparent, in fact, from the response so many people are having to the work. I think you'd have more of a point here if that prod has immediately received hundreds of thumbs on the strength of its artwork.
The prod in question may not be for everyone, but set out to do something technically and to an extent conceptually original and succeeded. It doesn't devalue anything in doing so, including hand drawn pixel art - this is clearly apparent, in fact, from the response so many people are having to the work. I think you'd have more of a point here if that prod has immediately received hundreds of thumbs on the strength of its artwork.
When to respond? In ten years time?
What?
And no, this is not about only one single production. My rage is against much more than just a single production.
Well, that's my point. I think you should then clearly direct your rage away from the prod in question, and probably away from the demoscene. There's plenty of need for a collective, societal-level debate on the cultural and economic impact of AI. But all of this was started by a prod clearly made by people who really care and believed in what they were doing, in the non-commercial context of the scene. These people spent a very long time making something that would not have otherwise existed for an unsupported platform. I find it slightly heartbreaking to see that love, care and productivity being swept away by some of the responses here and on that prod's page.
AI is potentially a threat to many things, but the demoscene isn't one of them.
AI is potentially a threat to many things, but the demoscene isn't one of them.
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I don't get these visceral responses at all. This looks like a textbook "in the moment response to a new technology".
I was refering to this when asked "When to respond?
I understand what is being said. The AI opposition may look like a "fight or flight" gut reaction. But it's not (at least not in my personal case). I spent a year watching, listening, thinking, discussing. And came to conclusion that this is definitely a dumpster fire.
It took us nearly 20 years to realize that social networks were perhaps not such a good idea. Do you think we should hold off with our opinion on the LLM AI onslaught for the next 20 years?
@Tom this is not right. AIs are a threat to real artists on a personal level who spent and spend time to craft their art. And many of us here feel with them.
Check back what I said. I don't disagree with these issues. I'm just very uncomfortable about them coalescing around an Amiga prod that some clearly well intentioned humans put a lot of love into.
Obviously you may not have contributed to this thread along these lines, but everything is becoming so mixed up here.
Obviously you may not have contributed to this thread along these lines, but everything is becoming so mixed up here.
@Tom
You are asking for sympathy for the makers of the said demo. Which means you are an empathic person. We're asking for sympathy for fellow graphicians. I (and others) failed to provoke that sympathy from the creators of the said demo.
You are asking for sympathy for the makers of the said demo. Which means you are an empathic person. We're asking for sympathy for fellow graphicians. I (and others) failed to provoke that sympathy from the creators of the said demo.
the threat is... do you enjoy competing in a competition where others cheat? if you look at this from a sport perspective, most would probably say no (the cheaters probably wouldn't mind). For demomaking it would feel the same but some are arguing that AI generated crap is a good thing.
@Frost: And what is rage for? Not for anything remotely productive in my opinion.
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For demomaking it would feel the same but some are arguing that AI generated crap is a good thing.
@maali: That would sound like if someone would said that some people think human-generated crap is a good thing. Who'll said that about human-generated crap or any other kind of crap? :]
As I wrote before Im very much against AI in art and music. And generally in all artistic productions. As I've said before, Im against it because art is a human thing that is sacred to us.
Then it does upsets me when this sacred thing is threatened. Threatened because some don't seem to care if it's AI or not, or say embrace the "tool". If we embrace it, the virus is let in and will destroy our sacred thing.
Im not talking only about our little scene. Im talking about art all over the world in all categories.
I boggles my mind why some don't see this threat and the risk of ruin the human expression removing all true feelings and left is a plastic barbie. It will lead to so much bad stuff.
Art is expression of love, frustration, hatred, horror, etc and we as humans need to express our selves and let of steam now and then. If we aren't able to do that it will lead to very bad things after a while.
The argument that you can still do it despite AI everywhere don't hold up. It will take over everyone in the end because people will stop doing real art because fewer and fewer cared if it was human made or not. Also kids will find no purpose to learn real art, because what's the point when you just prompt something and fill the world with more mindless things. Also AI spewing out 100.000 images per day. Imagine wading through that noice making your voice heard!
If you use AI it only proves you are lazy and don't have much imagination. Lazy learning the craft. Low imagination finding new ideas. Why do you want to seem lazy and boring to your audience?
I will 100% stop making images and demos on the C64 platform if AI becomes generally accepted and start to appear in many many demos, as has sadly started to happen already.
Because what's the point? Then I will try to find somewhere else where human made things are appreciated, if possible if it's not too late there too.
Then it does upsets me when this sacred thing is threatened. Threatened because some don't seem to care if it's AI or not, or say embrace the "tool". If we embrace it, the virus is let in and will destroy our sacred thing.
Im not talking only about our little scene. Im talking about art all over the world in all categories.
I boggles my mind why some don't see this threat and the risk of ruin the human expression removing all true feelings and left is a plastic barbie. It will lead to so much bad stuff.
Art is expression of love, frustration, hatred, horror, etc and we as humans need to express our selves and let of steam now and then. If we aren't able to do that it will lead to very bad things after a while.
The argument that you can still do it despite AI everywhere don't hold up. It will take over everyone in the end because people will stop doing real art because fewer and fewer cared if it was human made or not. Also kids will find no purpose to learn real art, because what's the point when you just prompt something and fill the world with more mindless things. Also AI spewing out 100.000 images per day. Imagine wading through that noice making your voice heard!
If you use AI it only proves you are lazy and don't have much imagination. Lazy learning the craft. Low imagination finding new ideas. Why do you want to seem lazy and boring to your audience?
I will 100% stop making images and demos on the C64 platform if AI becomes generally accepted and start to appear in many many demos, as has sadly started to happen already.
Because what's the point? Then I will try to find somewhere else where human made things are appreciated, if possible if it's not too late there too.
I do understand a lot of the points being made here, and don't disagree with them. However a lot of the points are principles-based in a way that isn't actually supported by present reality. For instance, concerns about AI impacting upon the integrity of compos would be more valid in this case if it hadn't finished 8th - sure, not last place, but a ranking that I think is fair on balance, given the prod's technical innovation. Neither this, nor the discussion that has followed, is a glowing endorsement for use of AI in demos.
I think where use of any tool becomes "cheating" is very fuzzy. I don't want to speak for the authors but I don't think they have said at any point that AI is preferable to pixel art. In this case I can clearly see how this prod would have been very difficult to produce without AI. You may not like the prod, or the use of AI, but without it this wouldn't have existed, and I think that would have been sad, whatever my personal feelings towards the demo are. And @4gentE I get what you're saying, but we'll probably just have to agree to disagree, because I don't agree that this prod or any prod that uses AI would cause harm to graphicians.
I think where use of any tool becomes "cheating" is very fuzzy. I don't want to speak for the authors but I don't think they have said at any point that AI is preferable to pixel art. In this case I can clearly see how this prod would have been very difficult to produce without AI. You may not like the prod, or the use of AI, but without it this wouldn't have existed, and I think that would have been sad, whatever my personal feelings towards the demo are. And @4gentE I get what you're saying, but we'll probably just have to agree to disagree, because I don't agree that this prod or any prod that uses AI would cause harm to graphicians.
@The_Sarge: The use of AI as "yet-another-tool-available" for the creative process of human artist does not pose more danger to human artists than any other invention.
As I wrote before, as long as there are human beings, there will be human art.
Sorry, but that sounds like bullshit to me.
It's like you're trying to convince me that no one will learn to code anymore in assembly because compilers exist.
As I wrote before, as long as there are human beings, there will be human art.
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The argument that you can still do it despite AI everywhere don't hold up. It will take over everyone in the end because people will stop doing real art because fewer and fewer cared if it was human made or not. Also kids will find no purpose to learn real art, because [...]
Sorry, but that sounds like bullshit to me.
It's like you're trying to convince me that no one will learn to code anymore in assembly because compilers exist.
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I will 100% stop making images and demos on the C64 platform if AI becomes generally accepted and start to appear in many many demos, as has sadly started to happen already.
Because what's the point? Then I will try to find somewhere else where human made things are appreciated, if possible if it's not too late there too.
I've been thinking the exact same thing for a while now, but only regarding demoscene related art. I'm considering to stop making digital art alltogether, except as a tool in my traditional art process. The last few years I've been more and more reluctant to even post any of my art online. It was not very funny to discover that some asshole sold NFT:s with my art.
@The Sarge:
As someone who loves your work, it's really sad to see that you'd quit C64 art if AI becomes more prevalent in demos. I guess I need to revise my point to @4gentE as that is definitely an example of "harm" being caused...
I still do not believe that AI will replace the craft of hand pixelling. Lots of products are mass produced but also still exist in hand-made forms - who'd prefer the mass produced version? And you can always tell, right? Laser printers didn't kill drawing. Cars didn't kill bicycles. The printing press didn't kill writing. History strongly suggests new technology doesn't eliminate craft, and I'm fairly certain it'll be no different here. I can understand, though, why AI might strike real fear into anyone who draws/designs for work rather than play.
As someone who loves your work, it's really sad to see that you'd quit C64 art if AI becomes more prevalent in demos. I guess I need to revise my point to @4gentE as that is definitely an example of "harm" being caused...
I still do not believe that AI will replace the craft of hand pixelling. Lots of products are mass produced but also still exist in hand-made forms - who'd prefer the mass produced version? And you can always tell, right? Laser printers didn't kill drawing. Cars didn't kill bicycles. The printing press didn't kill writing. History strongly suggests new technology doesn't eliminate craft, and I'm fairly certain it'll be no different here. I can understand, though, why AI might strike real fear into anyone who draws/designs for work rather than play.
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As I wrote before, as long as there are human beings, there will be human art.
As long as we have bottled water, it doesn't matter if the whole world is totally flooded with sewage. Yeah, sounds good.
I'm sure you were all waiting for my hot take on this topic, so here goes:
I don't dislike AI in the broadest sense. Instead, what frustrates me is that the use of AI trained on commercial data is somehow considered acceptable. The acceptance of content that was not created by the demogroup itself has slowly become higher and higher, which for me personally was one of the reasons to mostly disengage from the scene. It moved from ripped game textures and using commercial mp3s to using commercial engines, commercial models and now zero-effort remixes of commercial art.
People have varying opinions of what "scene spirit" is, but to me the use of AI is one of many things anthetical to it.
Oh well.
WURST, etc
I don't dislike AI in the broadest sense. Instead, what frustrates me is that the use of AI trained on commercial data is somehow considered acceptable. The acceptance of content that was not created by the demogroup itself has slowly become higher and higher, which for me personally was one of the reasons to mostly disengage from the scene. It moved from ripped game textures and using commercial mp3s to using commercial engines, commercial models and now zero-effort remixes of commercial art.
People have varying opinions of what "scene spirit" is, but to me the use of AI is one of many things anthetical to it.
Oh well.
WURST, etc
That is actually a pretty sane take.
@Frost, that was not my intention, I apologize.
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As long as we have bottled water, it doesn't matter if the whole world is totally flooded with sewage. Yeah, sounds good.
But that, my friend, is exactly what has always happened with art. What for some is pure mineral water, for others is camel urine. Or do you think there is objectivity in art? Everything is pure subjectivity and what is gold for some is shit for others.
Artists of the world! Hear me! The AI is here to give you freedom!
Just make your art and don't worry about the petty opinions of others. You know in your heart that art is not made to please others!
Except commercial fake art as required by advertising agencies. ;]
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On the contrary, this is not freedom at all. Freedom is relying 100% on yourself and your skills that you learned the why's and when's.
Now you are a depending on someone(?) else to do your art.
Dont mistake AI for another tool. This tool removes the artist. This has never happened before. Before this, the tools has gotten better and better until us artists now are removed as well.
We started to work for the machine, when we thought it was the other way around.
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Artists of the world! Hear me! The AI is here to give you freedom!
]
On the contrary, this is not freedom at all. Freedom is relying 100% on yourself and your skills that you learned the why's and when's.
Now you are a depending on someone(?) else to do your art.
Dont mistake AI for another tool. This tool removes the artist. This has never happened before. Before this, the tools has gotten better and better until us artists now are removed as well.
We started to work for the machine, when we thought it was the other way around.
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Quote:As long as we have bottled water, it doesn't matter if the whole world is totally flooded with sewage. Yeah, sounds good.
But that, my friend, is exactly what has always happened with art. What for some is pure mineral water, for others is camel urine. Or do you think there is objectivity in art? Everything is pure subjectivity and what is gold for some is shit for others.
Artists of the world! Hear me! The AI is here to give you freedom!
Just make your art and don't worry about the petty opinions of others. You know in your heart that art is not made to please others!
Except commercial fake art as required by advertising agencies. ;]
One of the greatest C64 graphicians says he’s gonna quit because of this whole crap (and he’s far from being the only one) and ham keeps his evangelical prophet-like bullshit. Yuck.
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I do understand a lot of the points being made here, and don't disagree with them. However a lot of the points are principles-based in a way that isn't actually supported by present reality. For instance, concerns about AI impacting upon the integrity of compos would be more valid in this case if it hadn't finished 8th - sure, not last place, but a ranking that I think is fair on balance, given the prod's technical innovation. Neither this, nor the discussion that has followed, is a glowing endorsement for use of AI in demos.
Fine. Now take a long, close look at gfx compos and try to spot undisclosed AI use.