Non-scener's confusion about the scene
category: general [glöplog]
In this thread some stuff is to be found: https://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=12375. Check out the material from The Judges, Atari prods posted by Havoc (Eckhard Kruse!), Exhaust Port, Pure-Byte, The Sequel by Zard, Hyper Sports, Axel-F and a large number of other music+gfx titles, Thomson tech demo, and of course the Dancing Demon.
I still haven't found the first demo I ever saw in... must have been around 1984. It was a full multi-parted demo on C64.
I still haven't found the first demo I ever saw in... must have been around 1984. It was a full multi-parted demo on C64.
^
Pure-Byte mentioned. Their demos look like cracktros and csdb database suggests they released at least 12 cracks. So how this data is supposed to be interpreted?
Pure-Byte mentioned. Their demos look like cracktros and csdb database suggests they released at least 12 cracks. So how this data is supposed to be interpreted?
The guy who coded Exhaust Port, Floyd, very soon after joined the 42-Crew - one of the earliest crack groups on ST. I think even they started with demo releases though, styled on C64 cracktros.
First there was just the scene, which included all sorts of computer hobbyists, even gamers. Games, demos, music, graphics, everything you could do with the computer was interesting and was spread and enjoyed by everybody. Before I had even heard of a _demo_ scene specifically, there was just the scene.
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Pure-Byte mentioned. Their demos look like cracktros and csdb database suggests they released at least 12 cracks. So how this data is supposed to be interpreted?
Tell us :-) The interesting thing about Pure Byte is that they (or just Yip) were content to pull off own code, gfx, music in 1986 (check out Pain! and pivotal, very advanced for its time production production 5th Dream About Happiness), and only demos are listed after that point. (Undated cracks were from 1985 games.)
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This.First there was just the scene, which included all sorts of computer hobbyists, even gamers. Games, demos, music, graphics, everything you could do with the computer was interesting and was spread and enjoyed by everybody. Before I had even heard of a _demo_ scene specifically, there was just the scene.
You cannot look at early demos and deduce "these must have been inspired by crack intros, thus demoscene was an offspring of cracking scene".
And if you can, it's no more valid than the assumption that both scenes were the same thing at that time, and whether or not a game was attached did or didn't matter depending on whom you'd ask back then.
^
straw man
straw man
^ care to elaborate?
The state of affairs in cracktros on the C64 was like
1984
1985
1986
The 1985 one even sports music from game musician David Whittaker (and open sideborders). Cracktros were simpler, smaller, incomplete demos merged into cracks as introductionary material. I haven't found a single cracktro from Pure Byte either.
1984
1985
1986
The 1985 one even sports music from game musician David Whittaker (and open sideborders). Cracktros were simpler, smaller, incomplete demos merged into cracks as introductionary material. I haven't found a single cracktro from Pure Byte either.
That Pure-Byte's demo certainly doesn't go much beyond crack intros in 1986 – many of which already had larger graphical screens in 1986, see links below. That release can be seen affirming the case that early demos were based on the concept (some kind of still image plus text scroll) established by cracktros which preceded them.
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=77611
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=235030
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=68283
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=123928
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=126163
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=185561
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=106668
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=103435
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=62843
https://demozoo.org/productions/124983/
https://demozoo.org/productions/224754/
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=77611
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=235030
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=68283
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=123928
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=126163
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=185561
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=106668
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=103435
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=62843
https://demozoo.org/productions/124983/
https://demozoo.org/productions/224754/
I was just wondering if still images with no music and text insertions into games in 1986 are the unified style you were referring to earlier. Have you tried "Skyline Software Systems presents Graphics"? Remains Krabat Intro, which is certainly on par with demos of that time.
The generalized proclamation of cracktros being the origin of the demoscene always left me puzzled and I am sharing the view, that it is a myth.
In the early years of Atari 8-bit computers, there were programs circulating demonstrating the technical possibilities of the "new computer device" regarding sound, graphics and visualization. These demos were partly provided by Atari itself for marketing reasons, later also created by independent authors with obvious technical interest and fascination for the computer. I think this originated in a curious, engineering mindset and there was no visible connection to the cracking scene which possibly didn't even exist back then on Atari.
Good examples are:
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=23292
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=27280
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=27281
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61284
I am not very involved into C64 history, but I assume there have been similar demonstrations.
However, I think typical "cultural" elements, like groups, nicknames, greetings, credits, scrollers and also the competitive factor may well have been introduced or shaped by the cracking part later on which then became the "demoscene culture". Related to the original post, I share the view that we are repeating these cultural patterns.
In the early years of Atari 8-bit computers, there were programs circulating demonstrating the technical possibilities of the "new computer device" regarding sound, graphics and visualization. These demos were partly provided by Atari itself for marketing reasons, later also created by independent authors with obvious technical interest and fascination for the computer. I think this originated in a curious, engineering mindset and there was no visible connection to the cracking scene which possibly didn't even exist back then on Atari.
Good examples are:
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=23292
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=27280
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=27281
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61284
I am not very involved into C64 history, but I assume there have been similar demonstrations.
However, I think typical "cultural" elements, like groups, nicknames, greetings, credits, scrollers and also the competitive factor may well have been introduced or shaped by the cracking part later on which then became the "demoscene culture". Related to the original post, I share the view that we are repeating these cultural patterns.
I am more inclined to think it's in our nature, or teenagehood nature, to use nicks and create groups; see the graffiti scene for instance.
Looking at some of the very early demo-ish releases mentioned above, there definitely feels like there was a shift in mindset from "let's make something to demonstrate a computer's capabilities" (sometimes for marketing reasons) to "let's make something to transcend a computer's capabilities". You can just feel the difference in attitude.
Hmmm...if realtime graphics + video is what you are after, maybe the earliest attempt should be something like this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Video_Music (released 1979 commercially).
*real-time gfx + music, and it was 1977
These "oldest demos" things were discussed also earlier in:
https://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=11365
https://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=11445
...where i noted a word "demo" was already used in 1986, for a demo, btw.
https://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=11365
https://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=11445
...where i noted a word "demo" was already used in 1986, for a demo, btw.
Comments from murrica tends to be:
"Why are you doing this if you cant earn any money on it?"
"Why are you doing this if you cant earn any money on it?"
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The generalized proclamation of cracktros being the origin of the demoscene always left me puzzled and I am sharing the view, that it is a myth.
In the early years of Atari 8-bit computers, there were programs circulating demonstrating the technical possibilities of the "new computer device" regarding sound, graphics and visualization. These demos were partly provided by Atari itself for marketing reasons, later also created by independent authors with obvious technical interest and fascination for the computer. I think this originated in a curious, engineering mindset and there was no visible connection to the cracking scene which possibly didn't even exist back then on Atari.
Good examples are:
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=23292
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=27280
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=27281
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61284
I am not very involved into C64 history, but I assume there have been similar demonstrations.
However, I think typical "cultural" elements, like groups, nicknames, greetings, credits, scrollers and also the competitive factor may well have been introduced or shaped by the cracking part later on which then became the "demoscene culture". Related to the original post, I share the view that we are repeating these cultural patterns.
I think it's a crucial part to differ demos that were made for commercial interests and demos that were made for the demoscene culture - which originated from the cracking scene.
Sigh. :)
Lol
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...where i noted a word "demo" was already used in 1986, for a demo, btw.
The term demonstration for the purpose didn't have to be invented, as it was always there (sightings in 1983 [0], 1984 [3], 1985 [2]).
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I think it's a crucial part to differ demos that were made for commercial interests and demos that were made for the demoscene culture - which originated from the cracking scene.
Because you wish so, or did you do some research? :-)
The subculture did both [1][2], and demos were around all the time [2][3]. Case in point on the C64 were sample playing demos [4] (which required all the memory), standalone music [5] and gfx rips, and these got complemented with more and more original content [6], until everything was their own creation. This process was complete in 1986 [6][7], at which point we have groups which did nothing but demos [8]. Each platform has its own specific history: On Ataris demos predate cracking even more clearly [9]. Dismissing Eckhard Kruse [A] for the supposition it wasn't the right culture would be gross, IMO. :-)
[0] Thomson Tech Demo (1983)
[1] Axel-F demo (1985)
[2] Crazy Comets music demo (1985)
[3] For example... demo (1984)
[4] Van Halen (1986)
[5] Music from Commando (1985)
[6] IBM Music VII (1986)
[7] Kaze Demo #2 (1986), A Nu Cru (1986)
[8] The Supply Team, TEK, Pure-Byte
[9] README.PRG (1987)
[A] Grafik Und Sound Demo aka Hau Rein Zottl (1986)
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Quote:I think it's a crucial part to differ demos that were made for commercial interests and demos that were made for the demoscene culture - which originated from the cracking scene.
Because you wish so, or did you do some research? :-)
Probably most because it feels most right ;)
But what I mean is that the demoscene is more than just demos.
May I add:
Atari Graphic Demo by Dendrit Software (1985)
The Graphic Demo by Peter Sabath & Compy Shop (1986)
Hobby-Tronic Demo '87 by Atari Bit Byter User Club and Peter Sabath (1987)
as wonderful examples for the transitional character of computers demos of the early years. They are obviously demos, but no cracking or demoscene culture in sight.
The above prods also hint to another phenomenon: the initiation of computer clubs, typically at least in Germany. These were typically non-commercial or sometimes attached to computer shops or companies. Members often showed each other what they did with their computers at meetings and sometimes the clubs used those productions to advertise.
Atari Graphic Demo by Dendrit Software (1985)
The Graphic Demo by Peter Sabath & Compy Shop (1986)
Hobby-Tronic Demo '87 by Atari Bit Byter User Club and Peter Sabath (1987)
as wonderful examples for the transitional character of computers demos of the early years. They are obviously demos, but no cracking or demoscene culture in sight.
The above prods also hint to another phenomenon: the initiation of computer clubs, typically at least in Germany. These were typically non-commercial or sometimes attached to computer shops or companies. Members often showed each other what they did with their computers at meetings and sometimes the clubs used those productions to advertise.
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But what I mean is that the demoscene is more than just demos.
We can certainly agree on that, so I don't get this insistence on a cracking origin. :-) The excessive swapping helped in making demos a big thing, and after that the scene just returned to its origins. :-)
I guess in our group some would have us positioned as crackers as well. But the creative ones dominated and we were living in a rural area and so didn't have access to original stuff to crack. Everybody at that time wanted to brag about being a "cracking group" and oh-so-illegal. Read 1986 TEK scrolltexts mocking this trend. :-)