So, how dead is it?
category: general [glöplog]
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you listen to comment? Like, you make something and you're proud to make something and someone say: omfg this is crap… you listen to that? Even if it were constructive feedback, I mean… you need it?
Yes, No. Yes.
I'm interested in "thumb up" and need comments.
When I was 15 years old and i did't have Internet, I watched demos and intros found on some CDs. I had small collection and I knew names of the authors by heart. For me they were the gods of coding, tracker music. And now some of them are commenting on my products. Could a 15-year-old me think about this? :)
Pouet.net power! ;)
I also think feedback is very interesting.. The bad feedback stings a bit, but there is usually some truth to it!
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There isn't much constructive feedback.
I find the feedback you can get on pouet very useful and motivating. You get trained in the real world how to give feedback without hurting the receiver, which often results in them blending out the (relevant) negative parts of it.
Here it's a more raw and honest kind of interaction. Nothing motivates me more than a good old "No.", "Ok", Or "No thumbs at all" = my prod was so crap, nobody even bothered to watch or comment.
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with a few rules in place on how to engage constructively / non toxic;
I'd really much rather receive unmoderated feedback. The moderation removes its use entirely for me. The useful information I can extract from it (and use to improve) is then reduced to "how many did comment my prod", which has high fluctuation with party size or general scene mood.
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If I made complete crap, I already know it before entering.
My metric is not as good. I always like my own stuff, why would I make stuff I don't like and not throw it away? unclear strategy :D
I think pixtur raises some very valid points.
Although pouet provides all the features needed, I feel the current presentation does a poor job of grabbing the attention of newcomers:
An obscure website with lots of text and tiny little icons everywhere.
This was fine for being a obscure underground scene back in the days, but nowadays this will not help with a scene being in decline.
I feel we need a portal for the scene that shows loads of amazing stuff in hires immediately on the frontpage, with some modern design. So visitors can directly understand what is all about.
Maybe just bolt something like https://curio.scene.org/ in front of the current start page?
Regarding demotivation to do pc demos: I feel the same, therefore I only work on small 3 day releases anymore. Is fun for myself, and i don‘t get frustrated about comments or party compo rankings.
Although pouet provides all the features needed, I feel the current presentation does a poor job of grabbing the attention of newcomers:
An obscure website with lots of text and tiny little icons everywhere.
This was fine for being a obscure underground scene back in the days, but nowadays this will not help with a scene being in decline.
I feel we need a portal for the scene that shows loads of amazing stuff in hires immediately on the frontpage, with some modern design. So visitors can directly understand what is all about.
Maybe just bolt something like https://curio.scene.org/ in front of the current start page?
Regarding demotivation to do pc demos: I feel the same, therefore I only work on small 3 day releases anymore. Is fun for myself, and i don‘t get frustrated about comments or party compo rankings.
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I feel we need a portal for the scene that shows loads of amazing stuff in hires immediately on the frontpage, with some modern design. So visitors can directly understand what is all about.
Do it! ;)
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feel the same, therefore I only work on small 3 day releases anymore. Is fun for myself, and i don‘t get frustrated about comments or party compo rankings.
By doing so, you fill demoscene with prods that make fun only for you, potential newcomers watch on this and think: what the hell is this? Why should we participate in this?
And how will a modern and beautiful website help in this case?
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absence, come on, relevance. What's the relevance of music, sculptures, color perception. People are doing this because they have to do this. For some people its value lies not even in the final product, but in the making itself.
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I don't believe that saying the scene is not relevant enough deny you the right to create and make one. It's a good thing to know where you stand and say "fuck being relevant"
Guys, that's enough strawmen for an entire field. Nobody is questioning the relevance of music, sculptures, or colour perception, and nobody is denying anyone the right to do anything. What I did question was the relevance of running an executable in order to watch something that essentially is a video. Obviously there's a hard core that cares about all the technicalities, but the context of my response was this lament:
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And if you don’t attach a YouTube video to the release, then no one will look at the prod.
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Guys, that's enough strawmen for an entire field.
No. You're conflating your alleged relevance for an internet spectator with the relevance that has it for the maker. For me a demo is everything about the fun making it, and watching demos at parties and at home, all on the real machine. Videos are an afterthought for those who neither attend the party nor run demos on their computers. You can question this, but relevance happens only inside our heads.
We're obviously not discussing the same topic. :)
Go on, your premise is that a demo is essentially a video. I disagree. Let's see how far this idea gets you with the makers of demos.
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feel the same, therefore I only work on small 3 day releases anymore. Is fun for myself, and i don‘t get frustrated about comments or party compo rankings.
By doing so, you fill demoscene with prods that make fun only for you, potential newcomers watch on this and think: what the hell is this? Why should we participate in this?
And how will a modern and beautiful website help in this case?
bitl: It is you who assumed a 3 days production always equals crap. I never implied this. You can do nice stuff in 3 days, if you are skilled.
alarma, I did a strawman!
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You can do nice stuff in 3 days, if you are skilled.
Show me "3 day production" in the top 100. You can do something pretty in three days. But usually it's just crap that no one will remember in a week.
It's much better if you do it for some other reason than getting to top something. I've been involved in some prods that ranked high somewhere, it felt nice for a few minutes, but ultimately what difference does it make. Worrying about placements in compos and charts spoils the fun, it's just not worth it.
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It's much better if you do it for some other reason than getting to top something.
Motivation may vary. Desire to win at the compo, get top, get applause - this is always been motivation for sceners. Why is it bad?
If you're just releasing something you've done in three days (and still think it's normal and good), you're either lazy or unambitious. Or the demoscene is not something important for you. And I don't think it's something to be proud of.
I have fun making prods and participating in compos, and the entries make the compos better. Not enough for your demands?
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If you're just releasing something you've done in three days (and still think it's normal and good), you're either lazy or unambitious. Or the demoscene is not something important for you. And I don't think it's something to be proud of.
I had my fair share of multi-month PC demo projects, where I was putting time and effort into a high-quality production just to end last place in Evoke demo compo and getting a hand full comments on pouet.
It isn‘t worth it for me, at least not on PC.
judging from your 7dump productions you are talking out of your arse anyway. Proving exactly my point.
In my experience, the amount of time and effort put in a prod does not correlate with how much fun comes out of it all. A quick prod may end up being really popular, or at least interesting from my point of view. And months of effort may produce something that nobody understands at all. If all the effort was guided by speculating on what might gain popularity, then it's a stupid project. I have to like the making of it, and what it looks and sounds like. If someone else likes it too, that's a random extra bonus.
I think one motivation to participate in demoscene was to create something that overcame the limitations of conventional game/graphics engines and platforms. Now you play games that create worlds that almost seem real on your home computer / gaming console. In light of that it would not surprise me that many, who otherwise would become a new member of demoscene, think: "Why bother? Whatever I do will never look as good."
There is another field which faces this challenge in the future: Art created by AI. When you can type a sentence and get a beautiful rendering, why bother learning the technique to paint it yourself? AI will cause many to not become paint (or even video) artists anymore, because the motivation to invest the time in it is less there if someone/something does it for you.
There is another field which faces this challenge in the future: Art created by AI. When you can type a sentence and get a beautiful rendering, why bother learning the technique to paint it yourself? AI will cause many to not become paint (or even video) artists anymore, because the motivation to invest the time in it is less there if someone/something does it for you.
1k and 4k intros are the interesting PC categories, because it's about effect trickery within conceivable limitations. Oldschool platforms are interesting as well, because the "what is the trick here and how was it done" question is understandable. But big demos, it's just pictures, music, 3d objects and animations. Maybe there's a piece of code somewhere, I can't tell. I have no idea how well made it is or if there is any trick at all. Not knowing anything about making them, it's basically just someone's home videos in a weird format. To get the slightest idea or appreciation, I'd need someone to explain how it was made and whether there's something new compared to how similar things are usually made.
But for every category there's someone who cares about it. I guess the number of interested persons is proportional to the number of entries in the compo.
But for every category there's someone who cares about it. I guess the number of interested persons is proportional to the number of entries in the compo.
Actually it would be interesting to have more info on each release on "what's new? what's the idea? whats the story?" (if any)
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judging from your 7dump productions you are talking out of your arse anyway. Proving exactly my point.
I had "3-Day prods" (and "1-Day"), just to fill compo. And I'm not proud of these releases. I worked on many prods for a very long time and spent a lot of effort. And if didn't find big response then my skill not enough. I will try again.
In addition to all of the above, the creation process is a pleasure. If you spend not 3 days on a prod, but 30 - this is 10 times more fun ;)
If the disappointment of a bad response to your release outweighs the pleasure of creating... And that makes you so stressed. So maybe it's just not worth it?
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What I did question was the relevance of running an executable in order to watch something that essentially is a video.
Why produce a painting if it is essentially a photo?
Why sculpting if you can 3d print?
Since a major part of the own audience doesn´t care anymore any lamentation about lack of newbies is plain pathetic.
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Why produce a painting if it is essentially a photo?
Why sculpting if you can 3d print?
While those are false equivalences (it's easy to tell the differences, unlike with demos and videos), there is an adjacent point. The invention of photography helped to push painters in a new direction: "The development of Impressionism can be considered partly as a reaction by artists to the challenge presented by photography, which seemed to devalue the artist's skill in reproducing reality." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressionism
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Why produce a painting if it is essentially a photo?
Don't know. Never understood the idea behind hyperrealism. At least when it's a picture you can do as a photograph as well.
