Suggestions to reunite the demoscene
category: parties [glöplog]
Havoc, this is a nice thought experiment. Imagine we could reach such an agreement (as a demoscene) and see if it would be possible for an orga to implement it at a given time under given regulations, and otherwise to abstain from running this party. It wouldn't work for many reasons, but I'd like to point out that there is no long-term perspective, no ruleset to operate under realiably. That's why it's prone to fail the more the bigger the party is. And that's why our government and adminstration (in Germany) sucks so hard: there's no concept of an exit. The power needs to get back into the hands of people who want to run things and are willing to take responsibility. People have a number of vaccines to choose from, they have the means of natural immunization, there's plenty of room to operate reasonably and responsibly. It's not like you're forced to attend any gathering. In so far it's even a good thing (seriously) to have "vaccinated safespace" parties, as part of a choice between different models. I think they provide an illusion of safety and prolong the misery, but under current conditions they are at least worth the experiment.
I see the demoscene comprised of 2 components, mutually dependant and interlocked: No parties without demos, no demos without parties. Now for some online parties may be some kind of substitute, but online is too much controlled and full of misunderstandings. Short story: It doesn't get any better than watching demos together and a few minutes later meeting each other in the line at the grill.
I see the demoscene comprised of 2 components, mutually dependant and interlocked: No parties without demos, no demos without parties. Now for some online parties may be some kind of substitute, but online is too much controlled and full of misunderstandings. Short story: It doesn't get any better than watching demos together and a few minutes later meeting each other in the line at the grill.
Hmm, don't hold your breath for that, likely they'll adapt a tropical cyclone-style naming scheme before running out. So Epsilon could come back, or we might have to worry about variant "Egbert" or "Ernesto" instead. :)
Keops, I don't care that much about being "offended." The point is that I am being hindered to frequent or run certain things, cross the border, be on the streets at certain daytimes without certain accessoires, enter certain shops without getting a medical intervention - and be under surveillance. Of course it's not just about me, I have your and everybody elses rights in mind too.
Havoc: ERNESTO! Sign me up :D
Just wanna say thanks for this discussion, guys. To all of you.
I still wonder who is doing all of this surveillance stuff. The only time I gave my personal data in the last 2 years to anybody was my vaccination. And I traveled abroad and went shopping and went to work and to a restaurant and all the jazz.
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I myself reserve the right to not show a certificate for entering a demoscene event, for reasons I'm not willing to disclose. Hints: I may be vaccinated - or not, or it may be a project of mine - or not.
btw. if this is about you being vaccinated with Sputnik V (or Sinuvac for that matters) - that's nothing to be ashamed of. Or if you got the immunity by visiting a Corona-Party (like a pox party - is this a thing?) - we just want you to have a certain immunity to begin with, to make things safer and to lower the stakes of the worst thing that could happen.
I just realized that the last post could've been read as me promoting Corona Parties to get immunity - god no, that's the worst idea ever. Get vaccinated if you can :)
Bifat: I think German politicians suck because they're politicians, not because they're German. As evidence I would like to mention the many shitty politicians in my own country :)
Having said that, I think the one thing that unites everyone on this thread is that we want to get to that exit. How and when probably varies between every single participant in the thread. And it's OK to let our personal views and political opinions determine if we attend particular demoparties, or not. But as you kind of hinted at already, let's not let those personal views and political opinions lead into questioning whether demoparties should be organized at all, regardless of their entry policies/safety plan/etc. It's better to have parties only for a part of the scene than for nobody at all :)
Having said that, I think the one thing that unites everyone on this thread is that we want to get to that exit. How and when probably varies between every single participant in the thread. And it's OK to let our personal views and political opinions determine if we attend particular demoparties, or not. But as you kind of hinted at already, let's not let those personal views and political opinions lead into questioning whether demoparties should be organized at all, regardless of their entry policies/safety plan/etc. It's better to have parties only for a part of the scene than for nobody at all :)
What happened to the plan that people who recovered from COVID-19 should get the vaccine (one shot only) as well to ramp up their antibody situation and be considered "acceptably protected and protecting"?
Read that some weeks ago in reputable media and assumed this was a given by now, but that seems not to be the case.
Read that some weeks ago in reputable media and assumed this was a given by now, but that seems not to be the case.
venom (and Havoc), you have my thumbs up for running Deadline (and other parties). I'd like to support it.
DFox, I was frequently asked to leave address and phone numbers, check in with apps, or get thrown out (I was thrown out.) I have shown my driving license twice or so in 25 years, I'd like to postpone the surveillance discussion until developments have shown me that I can confess to you that you were right - hopefully. Being "right" or "wrong", especially on the internet, is such a petty detail given the circumstances.
To keep calm and carry on is the most effective and safest "corona party" in my opinion, as we are constantly being bombarded with pathogens, among them about five different major coronaviruses at the moment (counting SARS-CoV-2 variants as one), which are not entirely unlikely to provide some degree of cross-immunization.
DFox, I was frequently asked to leave address and phone numbers, check in with apps, or get thrown out (I was thrown out.) I have shown my driving license twice or so in 25 years, I'd like to postpone the surveillance discussion until developments have shown me that I can confess to you that you were right - hopefully. Being "right" or "wrong", especially on the internet, is such a petty detail given the circumstances.
To keep calm and carry on is the most effective and safest "corona party" in my opinion, as we are constantly being bombarded with pathogens, among them about five different major coronaviruses at the moment (counting SARS-CoV-2 variants as one), which are not entirely unlikely to provide some degree of cross-immunization.
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What happened to the plan that people who recovered from COVID-19 should get the vaccine (one shot only) as well to ramp up their antibody situation and be considered "acceptably protected and protecting"?
Read that some weeks ago in reputable media and assumed this was a given by now, but that seems not to be the case.
Yeah, I was taken that as given.
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Limit the risk of infection of anybody partaking in the event. Organizers, visitors, suppliers, staff etc.
Dfox: Thank you.
As an real life eventmanager i can say that i only send vaccinated employees to workt at events and yes, i have that one employee who refused being vaccinated until now.
Sure. His body, his life. But my responsibility. And therefore: Homeoffice only.
No matter what.
Same with party organizing and the safety of the whole bubble, which INcludes even the families of attendees.
Maybe the thought ist too abstract for some people, but...when 1 person brings the virus on the party place and infects 1 other person, which brings the virus home after the event and infects someone there...and this person has a severe condition - i dont want this to happen. No one want this to happen.
And to be honest, i dont even want to live with it or even think about it.
When such incident happens though, even if everything is taken care of - which could happen anyway, its a complete different pair of shoes.
No one wants his/her event to be a superspreading event or even an event were anyone gets hurt in any way.
What i really really dislike is the "inclusion" Discussion.
Guys really...being unvaccinated does not make you disabled.
So there is no "inclusion" there is just "decision" and "patience until the pandemic is over".
Please dont come with "i cant get vaccinated because of medical issues". I only believe this, when someone shows me a letter of his doctor to prove it, because ppl use this phrase inflationary these days.
I know the fears unvaccinated ppl have, i had them aswell.
But as an asthmatic, diabetic, obese guy with sleep apnea i can tell you that side effects (which were like zereo) have been better for me as what this virus would do to me.
Anyhoo...start bashin´me but if i had a vote do do:
I´d go with "Vaccinated only" on every event.
And i count the days til easter.
Until then everyone had either c19 or was vaccinated.
So cross fingers, that no one will have a severe condition...or worse.
Just jump over your shadow and get the jab.
kthxbye
So many ppl w
I would like to ask the following to anyone advocating for "vaccine only" events.
Are you not worried that once this "temporary system" is in place it will eventually become permanent? And are you not worried that the list of requirements for your "green check mark" will only continue to grow?
Are you not worried that once this "temporary system" is in place it will eventually become permanent? And are you not worried that the list of requirements for your "green check mark" will only continue to grow?
Gabbie: no.
docd, dfox and venom, I'm totally sympathetic with the points you make about the feelings involved for an organizer running an event in this time. However this here wasn't meant to be about getting the jab, but starting from the point that not everybody will get it, as a given. That was the inital premise. venom starts calling the thread title a clickbait, which is unfortunate, as this questions its sincerity, also it was venom who has introduced the reunition theme in the most absurd fashion imaginable in my opinion. Maybe we can save this thread if we prove this wrong and stay on topic gathering ideas.
Regulations change almost every year for party organizers. Most of the time the visitors never notice it. This might be one of the times where you actually feel a change that's happening.
And no, I am not worried currently because from what I can observe in my (probably limited) area of activities is that restrictions are actually lifted more than they are restricted. Might change again, sure but I'm not getting paranoid or concerned about it.
Also, if i would be worried about it, what would I actually do to change it? Do illegal parties? All I can do is so my part to the best of my abilities and try to stay true to my passion for as long as I can.
And no, I am not worried currently because from what I can observe in my (probably limited) area of activities is that restrictions are actually lifted more than they are restricted. Might change again, sure but I'm not getting paranoid or concerned about it.
Also, if i would be worried about it, what would I actually do to change it? Do illegal parties? All I can do is so my part to the best of my abilities and try to stay true to my passion for as long as I can.
Bifat: I think all options that are currently available have been explored and we're left with illegal options, which seems to be the wish from a couple of people to "stick it to the man" or Rebell against regulations. You will find very few if any seasoned organizer to go that route so I think we're done gathering ideas until regulations change.
I can pull some more examples from my never ending repository of knowledge if you're interested.
At Revision we deal every year with ever changing and stricter security, fire hazard and hygienic regulations and it is a lot of work to comply. But we do this willingly and with a passion so we can still make the event happen. So far most of these changes are completely invisible to the visitor. Such as: more sanitary installations at parties, less tripping dangers, fire hazards and better accessibility to name a few.
Most of those changes actually affect the overall security and well-being of all of us - even if they are a huge pain in the ass to implement. So, having stricter health regulations is actually something that all of us will benefit from. I actually look forward to having hand sanitizer stations at every demoparty in the future. I love clean toilets and controlled and healthy staff at the food stalls and increased food quality as well. All of it comes with downsides for the providers but have a positive effect for participants.
Some of the less liked "improvements", if you want to call them that was, for example, the GEMA restrictions that became an issue at least at german parties. Overall, this actually improved life for us organizers as we don't have to fear prosecution and fees in case we don't comply. I see this as a win - even if it inconveniences some people or prohibit them from participating in competitions. And yes, in the end we found a way to fix this issue. So we might find a way to fix other issues as well. Might take some time (just as with GEMA) to get to the point but I'm not about to lose hope just yet.
And having a requirement that we can only allow vaccinated people at a demoparty (or any other non-demoscene event in the future even maybe) will increase the overall medical security and health of the people at and around the event.
Why is this bad? I think it's bad (or, more precise, FEELS bad) because we're so pampered and spoiled by our privilege of living in some of the "rich countries" of our planet that a sudden inconvenience is throwing us completely off the rails. I mean there's actual problems we have that are no solutions for and we worry about not being able to go to a fucking demoparty? Come on :)
At Revision we deal every year with ever changing and stricter security, fire hazard and hygienic regulations and it is a lot of work to comply. But we do this willingly and with a passion so we can still make the event happen. So far most of these changes are completely invisible to the visitor. Such as: more sanitary installations at parties, less tripping dangers, fire hazards and better accessibility to name a few.
Most of those changes actually affect the overall security and well-being of all of us - even if they are a huge pain in the ass to implement. So, having stricter health regulations is actually something that all of us will benefit from. I actually look forward to having hand sanitizer stations at every demoparty in the future. I love clean toilets and controlled and healthy staff at the food stalls and increased food quality as well. All of it comes with downsides for the providers but have a positive effect for participants.
Some of the less liked "improvements", if you want to call them that was, for example, the GEMA restrictions that became an issue at least at german parties. Overall, this actually improved life for us organizers as we don't have to fear prosecution and fees in case we don't comply. I see this as a win - even if it inconveniences some people or prohibit them from participating in competitions. And yes, in the end we found a way to fix this issue. So we might find a way to fix other issues as well. Might take some time (just as with GEMA) to get to the point but I'm not about to lose hope just yet.
And having a requirement that we can only allow vaccinated people at a demoparty (or any other non-demoscene event in the future even maybe) will increase the overall medical security and health of the people at and around the event.
Why is this bad? I think it's bad (or, more precise, FEELS bad) because we're so pampered and spoiled by our privilege of living in some of the "rich countries" of our planet that a sudden inconvenience is throwing us completely off the rails. I mean there's actual problems we have that are no solutions for and we worry about not being able to go to a fucking demoparty? Come on :)
Gabbie: No. I think if Rules stay in place, they do so for a reason. If the (then non-)pandemic is on such a Low Level that Risks are basically Close to Zero (either due to Herd immunity and/or covid mutated to Something non-deadly) I at least for Germany (and I believe it's the same for other countries as well) can't See a reason why such Rules should stay.
Reasoning? Germany (+Others) has been loosening the Rules in the past 1 1/2 years always very early. Far too early for my personal taste. If the rules already are nearly vanished in low-incidence but clearly pandemic times i can't see why they should stay when the pandemic is over by scientific agreement.
Reasoning? Germany (+Others) has been loosening the Rules in the past 1 1/2 years always very early. Far too early for my personal taste. If the rules already are nearly vanished in low-incidence but clearly pandemic times i can't see why they should stay when the pandemic is over by scientific agreement.
dfox, thanks for the insights, they are all duely noted. Regarding not being able to go to a fucking demoparty: I totally agree on this point, your wellbeing shouldn't totally depend on that. In a sense, we were living in a golden age. It's nice while it lasts and not easy to let go.
Regarding options yet unexplored, my ideals for a proper demoparty are e.g. to be able to make a surprise appearance without proof of identity, or be able to remix stuff without copyright considerations. One of the interesting challenges at the same time would be to downscale the organizational effort and hassle. Not easy I guess.
Regarding options yet unexplored, my ideals for a proper demoparty are e.g. to be able to make a surprise appearance without proof of identity, or be able to remix stuff without copyright considerations. One of the interesting challenges at the same time would be to downscale the organizational effort and hassle. Not easy I guess.
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I mean there's actual problems we have that are no solutions for and we worry about not being able to go to a fucking demoparty? Come on :)
Not being able to go to a demoparty is indeed, nothing more than an inconvenience. Which is why this discussion should be about our society as a whole and not just the short term problem of not being able to go to a demoparty. You are talking about excluding an entire group of people just so you can still have your party, that's a little bit pampered and spoiled as well, don't you think?
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Also, if i would be worried about it, what would I actually do to change it? Do illegal parties?
Either that or no party at all. And yes I understand that it is impossible to organise a party like Revision illegally, at least in it's current form.
@_docdˆhjb
Okay. But what about a potential booster shot? Surely that will be required to keep your "green check mark". Maybe not this year, but definitely next year. Or what about a "vaccine + negative test", it's not that hard to imagine that becoming a requirement as well. And these two are just the most obvious.
I'm not in the business of organizing illegal events and never will be no matter if if it's for 20 or 2000 people. If you read what I wrote you might understand that it's not about me or us having our party and being happy with excluding people. It's about doing what's possible under current circumstances. I mean you don't even want to be tested for the virus iirc...
I'm sorry but then I can't help you at all. To come to a common understanding there has to be movement and compromise from all sides and I fail to see that in what you wrote so far.
What you want is currently not realistic and possible and you will not convince me to stop trying to organize parties because you personally can't come. I see no helpful suggestions on how to alleviate the issues. You might convince other parties of that of course. But at this point it's a numbers game and I'd rather do something for the majority than for nobody. And hey, theres still streams and discord and voice chat as a channel for participation. That's what can be offered. If that's not enough then the legal options are exhausted.
I'm sorry but then I can't help you at all. To come to a common understanding there has to be movement and compromise from all sides and I fail to see that in what you wrote so far.
What you want is currently not realistic and possible and you will not convince me to stop trying to organize parties because you personally can't come. I see no helpful suggestions on how to alleviate the issues. You might convince other parties of that of course. But at this point it's a numbers game and I'd rather do something for the majority than for nobody. And hey, theres still streams and discord and voice chat as a channel for participation. That's what can be offered. If that's not enough then the legal options are exhausted.
Gabbie:
Im close to science trust - you are close to political fear.
If its necessary to get a shot every year, so be it.
Dunno what this fearmonger shit is all about, hope your "oppinion" wont get you hospitalized.
Good luck!
Im close to science trust - you are close to political fear.
If its necessary to get a shot every year, so be it.
Dunno what this fearmonger shit is all about, hope your "oppinion" wont get you hospitalized.
Good luck!
(Disclaimer: I am pro-vaccine, pro having documentation on it.)
I've crossed the border between the Czech Republic and Germany, and after having to wait for over an hour was greeted by about 20 German police men with machine guns. The question on having a proof of testing available was done with a machine gun pointing towards me.
I was happy that they finally had found a cure: Shoot the virus.
I can fully understand people being afraid of surveillance. I am only relaxed on this as I know what happens with all those forms filled. Living in a country of laughable digitalization standards, stuff is faxed into a paper bin.
In Germany the amount of surveillance and the kind of which really depends a hell let on where you are, and what method of transport you use. People who travel here by plane for example always are shocked to find out that there are no checks whatsoever on arrival at Frankfurt Airport. I really mean: None. Nobody wanting to see any paper (tests, vaccination) of any kind. You are fine being Godzillhitler bringing the plague.
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I still wonder who is doing all of this surveillance stuff. The only time I gave my personal data in the last 2 years to anybody was my vaccination. And I traveled abroad and went shopping and went to work and to a restaurant and all the jazz.
I've crossed the border between the Czech Republic and Germany, and after having to wait for over an hour was greeted by about 20 German police men with machine guns. The question on having a proof of testing available was done with a machine gun pointing towards me.
I was happy that they finally had found a cure: Shoot the virus.
I can fully understand people being afraid of surveillance. I am only relaxed on this as I know what happens with all those forms filled. Living in a country of laughable digitalization standards, stuff is faxed into a paper bin.
In Germany the amount of surveillance and the kind of which really depends a hell let on where you are, and what method of transport you use. People who travel here by plane for example always are shocked to find out that there are no checks whatsoever on arrival at Frankfurt Airport. I really mean: None. Nobody wanting to see any paper (tests, vaccination) of any kind. You are fine being Godzillhitler bringing the plague.
