pouët.net

Y0gi: I wouldn't assume that not getting the vaccine is based on non-belief or ill intent. There are numerous reasons for not getting it (or not being able to get it) apart from "being carelessly ignorant" of course.

For the near future lets say remaining 2021 and for 2022 it looks like party organizers are bound by the gouvernment rules to hold a scene party.

In Holland, currently, when its 75+ persons party you can only enter when you show a) vaccinationproof, b) recent negative test proof c) you have been recovered from Corona in the last 6 months. Gouvernment created a easy to use APP for this.

In other words dont debate politics here , party organizers cant take the riscs not following the rules.. it is what it is...

I am interested what's the status of these apps across Europe. They are all built around the EU digital corona certificate. The specification of the QR code / validation is here: https://ec.europa.eu/health/ehealth/covid-19_en

Holland: https://coronacheck.nl/nl/
Belgium: https://covidsafe.be/en

Can people across EU send a link to the app from their country? Typical EU stupidity though, every country needs their own app. But at least they interoperate.

Holland also offers the app to validate these certificates, presumably so any party organizer can use one. Please also let me know if your country provides this validator app; I'd like to do some experimenting.

The Hungarian one is available from https://www.eeszt.gov.hu/hu/eeszt-mobilalkalmazasok (scroll down, it's the one on the right); it was used at Qbparty.

German one: https://www.digitaler-impfnachweis-app.de/en/covpasscheck-app

The merits of a digital segeration tool are not exactly on topic of this thread. I'd kindly ask you to open a new thread for your findings.

I'm still impressed at the level of discourse here compared to the general internet, even if this thread just started as a rehash of closed threads. I'm not saying that the level couldn't be higher, and surely some people are just adding oil to the fire for no good reason, but really it's pretty good.

I also like that Gabbie basically brought his opinion down to "It is immoral to organize demoparties until we can do so without excluding unvaccinated people". It's clear and unambiguous.

It's also a pretty hardline "liberty-first" view that I'm sure even Gabbie understands many people will not agree with. After all, there's events excluding all kinds of groups all the time. Eg DFox's example about anxious people, or events that are not wheelchair accessible, or the giant pink elephant in the room, events that are not accessible to poor people.

magic: yeah that app worked a treat! like the kiddos at Aspen Valley in Enschede just showing a screenshot of someone else's QR code to enter and causing an unnecessary outbreak among unvaccinated students!

Like it or not, most countries will ask parties organized in the near future to use exactly those apps to let people in (as per law / local regulations), so I fail to see how they would not be relevant to this subtly renamed thread about how to organize a party during the pandemic?

The research I am trying to do is a) Do they actually interoperate well enough across EU so that one can just ignore alternatives (hand-signed documents), which are more flexible but presumably less trust-worthy. b) Could I just start using one of the validator apps in Finland to let people into my event: why every country needs on, is there something I'm missing, is it legal. FYI Finland has not released either app to my knowledge, so this is all new and exciting in this corner of the earth.

Just for curiosity, do you think that people with drivers licenses and people without one also counts as segregation? Both the vaccination certificate and a drivers license are documents allowing or disallowing you to do certain things.

That's why we need additional identity verification as stated in my post on the first page.

DFox: Strictly logically yes, sure, but driving licenses do not affect the get-together of demoscene people. So what's the point?

Well the thing is, a lot of people travel to demoparties by car.

Blaming the app when the instructions explicitly state "compare this date of birth and initials to an ID" and if the person at the door fails to do so, well, shame on him. Even then, it's always possibly to show fake ID. No system is perfect.

But I think most will consider twice before entering a demoparty untested / unvaccinated with a fake ID, as if they get caught, that might.. uh oh... influence the namevoting results and future pouet comments?

Bifat, and the risk of catchung a virus doesn't? Grow up.

Havoc: People travelling to demoparties still have options. I'd love to discuss the ethical foundation of driving licenses with you anytime at any demoparty.

Arab, I'm catching deadly viruses on a daily basis, and so far I've fended them all off.

Why is this an issue? Aren't there laws in Germany?

The certificate does not do that as well. It's the party organizers as well as state regulations which are influenced by the pandemic and the underlying virus. Don't blame the document for the dangers and restrictions that a global pandemic brought upon us.

Also. To use your line of arguments, I have missed out on demoparties because I did not have a drivers license and I somehow didn't see it as segregation. Many people have no access to cars or public transport due to various reasons and that's not segregation as well. So I kindly ask you to stop these (IMHO) nonsensical and unhelpful "comparisons". It's ridiculous to start a thread about finding solutions and disagreeing with solutions that are brought up by people.

If this is supposed o be a thread about perceived unfairness or government control then I misjudged the topic and will not continue to discuss here.

There have been no laws so far that would disallow you to catch a virus, but parts of the legislation do not content themselves with that and try to implement a precedent.

Source?

OK fine, DFox, then let's get back on topic. Suggestions?

@bifat - You might be so lucky, others won't.

Basically what you are stating is the equivalent of letting a person with a knife on a plane. It's possible that person won't use it to terrorize/kill others but - would you allow one?

The problem with unvaccinated folks is the same:
- they might / might not spread the virus
- they might / might not kill other people because of it

For any orga it's a simple thing - don't let those (terrorist) people* attend a party. It's damage controll. I wouldn't want to be directly associated to a party that resulted (in part) in a covid related death.

And i fully understand people that can't get vaccinated for medical reasons, but - they wouldn't attend a party anyway. Ask around.

* - reffering only to antivax consipracy theorists that argue just for the sake of agruing stating it narrows/limits their freedoms

(disclaimer): This post reflects my personal opinion on that matter.

D.Fox:

Oh, I am absolutely aware of solid reasons not to get vaccinated. The people limited by that are the ones I referred to as the ones in need of the indirect protection provided by those who can get vaccinated.


skrebbel:

Yeah, but let's not forget a serious difference here: Including people in need of some extra support usually does not come at the cost of the other/"main" attendees (maybe a slightly higher entrance fee or expecting attendees to behave a bit better/like decent humans).

This is not the case when including people that are a bigger risk of spreading a deadly virus, both to attendees and their loved ones.


Also it goes without saying that local (both location- and time-wise) government regulations have to be followed.

I get the point I think at LJ is making that all these governmental rules can stay and be applied and persist more and longer then they really need to and get a life of their own.

Then again, rules often are created in a community or society because some people choosing to take part in it actively behave in a negative way. If people would just take the very luckily available measures to protect both themselves and the community/society as a whole (i.e. including their weaker members in that regard), additional and strong rules as well as strong (or any) enforcement wouldn't be necessary in the first place.

Considering the saying "one's freedom ends where somebody else's freedom begins" (or what was it like again?), I personally find it hard to reason not getting vaccinated if possible without significant risk.

I also do see some aspects that make people uncomfortable like the whole identification and tracking stuff, but that is probably the price to pay to keep cheaters (which can cost actual lives) at bay.

I wrote my thoughts on how do realistically organize a demoparty already. If you're not a party (or any large event) organizer yourself I have doubts that you can discuss those thoughts with me on the same level though.

(Not supposed to be an insult, just an observation I made from comments that come from seasoned organizers as well as visitors on the other side of the discussion, who to obvious reasons can't always relate to the actual logistics and administrative work that go into organizing events)