pouët.net

havoc: That's not logical. I give advise on where to eat well, even if all I can cook myself is basically fried fat.

I am not good at a lot of things, but good at recommending who or what could be better.

I think that's normal and how most of us, you included, operate..?

Quite the opposite: People who failed at someone often are in a far better position to give advise, which is often valuable.

Google "Fuckup nights", highly successful.

Wouldn’t the more appropriate metaphor be that someone who can’t cook is advising others how to cook?

No, that would be someone who can't cook advising others how not to cook.

I guess nobody will claim that what's going on over there on Discord is working well. Or inviting. Or is fun. Or bringing people together. Or is making a good open communication platform for all sceners, no matter what their worldviews may be.

One can hardly argue that "non-elected invisible/non-listed moderators can ban sceners without telling anyone, and without other sceners even noticing that someone got banned" is something that ever used to be a mutually agreed value system in the scene. At least on IRC you knew who had the moderator power, and everybody could see and object if someone was banned. Some channels were run democratically, others "nobody bans anyone", others in anarchy.

As can be seen in this thread, this kind of non-transparency can make matters far worse, with both someone who got banned and other people present believing the ban was issued by someone who didn't, and didn't even have the power to do that. That very clearly is not a success story in moderation, right?

More generally speaking:

The demoscene has a common theme: We are very neurodiverse people, with some having a focus on nerdy stuff, others having their focus on art, who enjoy creating stuff for the scene, and have agreed they wish to compete with each other with the productions in competitions. And some probably would even object to that definition.

What does NOT unite these people are worldviews, religion, definition of decency etc. Trying to make your pet priorities an (undocumented and fuzzy) set of rules the whole scene should adhere to is bound to fail. It results in self-restraint, constant meta discussions of "can I still do that?", and fights about what goes and what doesn't.

I don't have a problem discussing a demo, intro, music track with someone who I know is an anti-vaxxer, anarchist, or someone who believes that once per month we should do "The purge". I most likely will not wish to discuss any of the previously mentioned with him, and certainly do not wish to be forced upon doing this. This is why I believe the part of moderation should be that the main channel of a demoscene communicaton system should be strictly about the demoscene, and everything else (worldviews, politics, corona, whatever) should be moved into specific subchannels.

This would allow me to fight against the "people have the right for a safe space" attitude which I reject, without causing drama on the main channel. Someone else could give his anti-vaccine-stuff on the #corona channel, and there might be some people enjoying fighting back on that on that channel, but again, the main channel gets clear of any of those emotional fights.

But probably what I have in mind is unrealistic.

Bombe has just posted what the rules on "his" server should be. It's obvious he does not wish to see that everybody has their own definition of "asshattery", "demeaning behavior", "trying to disturb conversations" etc. Pretty much everything on this list is highly subjective. It's like having traffic signs on our streets saying "Don't drive too fast". In this case combined with an invisible policeman that can arrest you without everyone seeing that, claiming you "drove too fast", and have you locked away out of public view forever.

Who are the moderators of the demoscene-discord? Is there a list somewhere?

Yesterday I got physically upset with what happened on Discord. I won't take sides, I think the whole thing was blown out of proportion. Even though I share some opinions with each side, that's not the reason why I'm writing now.

Just like in real life, internet discussions can get heated. That is normal. What is not normal is to get to these extremes. Just today a car parked in front of my door and a couple was loudly discussing while I was entering the building with my 3 little kids. At some point, they leave the car and started to be even louder. The worse thing is that they had a small kid, probably around 2 years old, witnessing all of this. I got in the building with my kids and couldn't help but worried about the little kid in the back of the car, scared and not understanding what the hell was going on.

Later I had to leave again to do some shopping and they were still there, fighting, but now with a crowd around. It was clear that some of them were taking sides and I just quickly walked around.

Now, I have no idea what the fight was about. All that I know that communication is key, but there's no way to achieve that by shouting. Also, the kid and the other people were witnessing all of that and disrupting any understanding that could exist between those two. Maybe they were trying to help, I don't know, but it didn't seem to have any practical result.

Why am I writing this? Two reasons: first, I think that personal differences should be settled privately. Reading the Discord, there were some very personal comments being thrown that had nothing to do with corona regulations or anything like that. If something about someone bothers you, maybe it would be best to have a private conversation. Do a video chat or call each other. Meet up for a coffee. If you need moderation, choose someone neutral to moderate the discussion. But please, try to avoid public drama like we've witnessed.

Second, and I know this isn't about me, but I can't feel like the little kid in the back of the car. Like that child, I love very much each one of those people shouting. And I feel scared. But, not like that kid, I can take action. The kid can't just leave, but I can. So I am leaving that Discord server, not for agreeing with one or another, not for not agreeing with its rules or code of conduct, but because I can't take anymore of that shit show.

Why not silently leave? Why to announce it here, of all places? Because I strongly believe that something must be done. There have been some effort to "sanitize" the communication channels of the demoscene, like pouet or discord. In principle, I'm not against that, as there have been situations where it was important to encourage some people to change their ways, as it was very toxic and demeaning to others. Not only to make the people here safer and happier, but also to make the newbies welcome. I get that. But if we're going to abuse the hammer ban and provoke reactions like this, then you're making me feel not welcome. And I can't be the only one.

As a party organiser, I feel the responsability to work towards a good environment at demoparties and online channels of communication, so maybe I have this urge to write his and maybe sparkle some discussion towards a healthier way to deal with our online presence.

Change is hard. Specially with other human beings involved. But if we want to make things better maybe we have to put some thought into it. Otherwise, divisions will happen and it will be again us against them. We don't have to agree in every single little detail, but there has to be common ground for us - not only in the demoscene, in the society in general - to function.

Paraphrasing Jack Nicholson in "Mars Attacks!", "why can't we all just get along?". Yeah, it's just about now where I get killed. :)

i think it's working fine overall actually. the main drama that took place on discord was instigated by you in the name of democracy and freedom of speech. on a server that is privately owned by Bombe which has no obligations of following any of your "democracy" and "freedom of speech" requirements.

Overall there were like 4 or 5 people with clear toxic behavior that got banned for being toxic. You're telling me no one can ban any toxic people from servers without the whole "you're canceling me" witch hunt parade coming to town?

Most of the drama from the server has been you ranting in there on how demoscene values are under attack and how we need to get rid of the moderators and bring transparency. It ain't your server to run. I agree with some of your points but you give them no credit by immediately after suggesting them start to randomly insult people you wrongfully believe to be mods. Even worse, without even really understanding how discord server owning / admin system works.

And you keep comparing it to IRC, discord ain't IRC, if we wanted IRC in 2021 we would be on IRC.



to me personally, the server being rid of d4xx, who had been a toxic element in the server for months was quite a success. i don't know who banned him and i don't care couz the admin team was in agreement that d4xx wasn't welcome there.

what is far worse is that an admin can't get rid of a toxic person without a couple of freedom of speech cruzaders showing up to claim the rightous path to enlightenment of server management.

if you're unhappy run your own server. with blackjack and hookers and no bans. there are like 20 demoscene servers so far! bombe's is more popular becuase it was used for revision, that doesn't make it the "official demoscene discord" where there is a comitte of nordic conspiracy enthusiasts to vote on who should moderate today.



i do completely agree with you there should be a more explicit rules channel where they are clearly listed, to specifically shut up people like you who come complain about these things.

but it really ain't rocket science: you're in someone else's server, when you ask for rules, admins tell you "don't be an asshole", if you fuck up and are an asshole by mistake they let you know what you did that is not welcome, if you refuse to acknowledge the mistake and keep doing it you get shown the door. which was what happened with both hardy, a couple random sexists during revision and now d4xx for his antivaxx ramblings and recurring shit throwing at kb and darya and in that particular discussion also fizzer. d4xx wasn't banned for this discussion alone, it was an accumulation of toxic behavior imho.

you go read fizzer's history and it's full of actual tech talk and friendly behavior. you read d4xx's historic and it's full of him complaining about the server being shit and the mods being shit and his pet hate darya being the instigator of all evil on earth and possibly also the underworld. random admin decided enough is enough and good riddance to that toxicity. i'm there to have fun, not read drama instigated by freedom of speech lunatics who think they're under a witch hunt while they keep poking irons. feels like that monthly python sketch of the king and the peasant being repressed.

jeenio: i completely understand the feeling. i felt same way a few times during revision during the sexism discussions. and this is sad because it drives people away from participating actively in the server talking about actual demo making stuff and making it a better place to hangout.

personally i view all these "you're being cancel culture lackeys" flamewars as the main instigators of the drama on the server. the server is much more friendly and interesting when these people aren't actively complaining about how the 5 people banned on the server is a worrying sign of the downfall of all the scene spirit into a communist regime that is ruining lives back and forth. it's fucking half a dozen people that got kicked because they kept being assholes despite being told not to, not a social revolution.

i'm at a point where i'm starting to considering creating that miraculous alternate "main official demoscene discord server ran by democratic elected moderators" just to be able to ignore it and have peace on bombe's server that will keep getting used for random party orga stuff anyways.

main thing i do agree with on scamp though for bombe's server is the need to put up clear rules that drives those kind of incendiary discussions to a proper channel (that normal users can just mute and not get depressed about the soap opera drama) and be more clear on what is toxic/offtopic/disruptive behavior that will not be tolerated.

gaspode: it's been mentioned several times on discord who the admins are: Bombe, cyraxx, Gargaj, kb, Ziphoid and gasman.

I both agree with jeenio and ps and would love to see people (out of which a lot of them I regard as my friends) come along with each other, without the constant discussion of being cancelled. (which is not true in my opinion) <3
Clear rules, sub-channels for discussing non-scene related or meta topics and maybe even more use of temporary kicks (as in the "good old irc" days) and if that doesn't help a ban would definitely help in my opinion.
That said I'm not a regular user of it anyways, because I don't find the time to read all the backlog when I log in the occasional day. The few times I actively used it, I either had a lot of fun (eg. during revision) or was very sad to see people I like fighting each other.

oh, one more thing, there is this feature that discord has for announcements, where you can set up a channel to be announcements only (it gets a megaphone) and people can subscribe to it to get the announcements posted there syndicated on their own discords. would be ace to have that on bombe's server for demoparty announcements. so all the haters of the server wouldn't use that "lack of access to central demoscene information" excuse to hang around on the server they despise for not having control over moderators. they could just have those announcements show up on their safe zone discord where no one is ever banned for reccuringly behaving being like a sexist and/or antivaxxer lunatic and/or asshole.

I think both Jeenio and Jack Nicholson (in "Mars Attack!"... but not in "Batman") are right.

For transparency reasons: I have just removed scamp from the Discord server.

Ban reason: "Has repeatedly displayed disruptive behaviour, does not listen to anything other people say, repeatedly hurts people even after being told why it's hurtful and to stop it, generally doesn't show a thread of remorse for any of the shit he's done."

Kindergarten

It's very telling where two days discussing "Can we please have subchannels for heated off-topic things like worldviews and corona, so the main channel is fun for everyone" + "why are bans done secretly and without warning" + "Can we do nominations to get mediating, relaxed and cuddly moderator who have an interest in things NOT boiling over all the time, and then vote on it" has ended:

In someone getting provoked, in moderators pouring oil into a fire, in someone getting banned, and most importantly: In exactly none of the valid criticism getting accepted.

It's so telling what the response to "but if you believe you are doing a good job moderating this, you do not have to worry of people not wanting you, they will just re-elect you and you'll feel validated" has been.

the scene needs neither you, daxx and scamp as well!

account created on the 2021-08-12 11:25:02

the scene needs demos, not people who hide behind newly created accounts when they fire shots

What is that "need" of which we speak?

Aware that one can always retreat to total nihilism -- which quest do we have?

Aware that in order to contribute to the scene, one just needs an internet connection (or floppy disks) and no other people in particular -- which world do we want to live in?

Try to show love. Not hate. Just try. It doesn't hurt practice it.

Are we still not out of the age to create fake accounts and ventilate with them?
I just have a dejavu. I hear the "scene needs" ... Have read that some lines before from someone else. Who's representative for the scene? You? I hope not.

Scamp: Please don't get into trouble with your friends now. This is a fight that you cannot win.

jeenio: I fully understand your position and am honestly sorry that this is hurting you.

But for those people that so far got banned or alienated the public response typically has been "so what, I don't like that person anyway". The intervals of this let's-provoke-someone-to-get-him-banned show are getting shorter and shorter. We now have reached "you can not be friends with... because" and "the whole group should be banned for having such a member".

Most of us are looking for harmony, especially after two years of only a minority having had the joy of meeting in partying in person. But this desire for harmony for me does not make it acceptable that we inside the scene lose core values. And to me to have a scene that includes controversial, weird and non-mainstream people is a core value, because I enjoy those weird people most. I enjoy having people around me who I disagree with.

I fully agree that personal matters should be discussed personally. Which is exactly why things exploded last night: A private conversation done at a party between friends suddenly 6 weeks later getting abused out of context on a public communication medium to rile up the "hang him high" crowd.

I'll be very transparent: My long-term goal is to take away each and every power the "hang him high"-crowd has gained inside the scene, so we can get back to "what unites is is the love for demos and creating of art, not what our world views outside of those bounds are". I am the person who 25 years ago started a sitting strike at Mekka's infodesk, and got carried out of the hall for doing that, because I demanded change. And in the end, we got change. Yes, took a while. But it was worth it.

Yes, this sure sounds pathetic, but: If there is no reform, at some point there will be revolution. Let's revisit this thread in 10 years and see how that has worked out :)

lol u funy

i'm betting 20eur that scamp's revolution is going to fail, any takers?

Gargaj: What is so funny?

Dude, if you have the way the current demoscene hangout is run so much, just start your own fucking discord/IRC channel/slack/telegram whatever, and invite people to use it.