Revision Online 2021 - April 2nd to 5th 2021
category: parties [glöplog]
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You are kidding, right? You want to ban the stream operator because individual chat users are misbehaving by posting offensive messages? Might as well ban all of Twitch then, because you'll find offensive posts on pretty much every public stream with past 1k simultaneous visitors / chatters. That's ridiculous. It's not a problem that originates from either the demoscene or the party host.
The stream operator has a certain responsibility for what is written in the chat and how the guests behave. It is not for nothing that there are chat rules and even automatic filters that ensure that language is used appropriately. Apparently this was neglected. Of course you cannot control everything and everyone and overlook and ignore a lot. But if it is already normal to tolerate Nazi slogans or similar terms, then something is really wrong here.
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Although I feel the Twitch chat is kinda unnecessary, since we got so many other communication platforms already, Discord being the latest in the list but there is also IRC, Telegram, you name it ... Twitch isn't really needed as a chat platform as it suffers from the spammy nature of comments as you described above.
It doesn't change the basic attitude or the level. We also have a Discord chat and still there are moderators there who at least take care that other people are not humiliated or insulted. Something like this should actually be taken for granted in today's generation of adults - but it apparently isn't.
Twitch moderation is a hard work and the very first thing moderators usually do when there's so much viewers is to activate slow mode and authorize only verified users - I don't know if it was the case. Sometimes there's also an initial cooldown to refrain people from recreating accounts when they're banned.
But that was not the reason of the ban, which was obviously nudity - per Twitch ToS, male in swimsuits are forbidden. You can agree with that or not, but if you stream on Twitch, you must abide by their rules.
I can't stop thinking that every year, there's Twitch staff that like the demoscene or are even sceners, that follow Revision on Twitch. It may be possible that they were watching the stream and were contractually obligated to report the channel.
But that was not the reason of the ban, which was obviously nudity - per Twitch ToS, male in swimsuits are forbidden. You can agree with that or not, but if you stream on Twitch, you must abide by their rules.
I can't stop thinking that every year, there's Twitch staff that like the demoscene or are even sceners, that follow Revision on Twitch. It may be possible that they were watching the stream and were contractually obligated to report the channel.
Just PSA: As far as I know, we don't actually know what caused the ban, short of the two words “adult nudity”. It's a reasonable guess (from the timing and Twitch's ToS) that it was the naked buttocks, but nobody really knows for sure.
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One of our team mates was briefly on the stream and didn't read anything other than expletives and insults.
So you didn't even watch the stream on Twitch but are just relaying shit you heard from a "friend"? Wow...
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One of our team mates was briefly on the stream and didn't read anything other than expletives and insults.
Well, and I was literally ON the stream IN the chat for hours on end. So I've got 1st hand experience, and beside from idle, cheeky, drunken banter or expressions of "wtf" over things happening in compos that resulted in occasional blanking of your typical 4-5 letter words, nothing hit my "OVER THE LINE, Smokey" sensor. Not this years Revision, nor the last, not even after rewatching compos from 2019 and cackling at recorded reactions in chat.
Change your friend's diapers, dude!
I don't think the stream chat was especially rude, racist or whatever—but to me, it was also pretty worthless. Like most Twitch stream chats generally are over a certain size.
(Not 100%, mind you, but my stream experience was actively better when Twitch took Revision off air and my main discussion groups moved elsewhere.)
(Not 100%, mind you, but my stream experience was actively better when Twitch took Revision off air and my main discussion groups moved elsewhere.)
I'd like to see some actual examples of those bad things that supposedly happened in the chat - I plain refuse to believe any racist stuff was not sanctioned quickly (one way or another). I can totally imagine that a lot of FUCK and SHIT was used however, dont count this as offensive or even worth talking about in this context though :) (I have watched on PS4 and thank god i dont see the chat there, i only find it distracting and annoying myself)
Is there even a chance that we will even see the actual reason for this ban?
Is there even a chance that we will even see the actual reason for this ban?
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Is there even a chance that we will even see the actual reason for this ban?
Is there any reason to assume that the actual reason for the ban is different from what has been communicated already? (I mean communicated by Revision organizers, and not all the hype and assumptions from others, of course.)
I watched and participated in Revision for this first time this year - on my encouragement, my in-laws, kids, and grandparents also tuned in. My kids love watching TV but surprisingly they tired of "dad's TV" pretty quick. Fuck'em, I say.
In-laws (surprisingly?) found it very stimulating. They were most engaged by the first day (day 2?) with the video and demos.
I am a big fan of CCC, and would be delighted if Revision went 'back underground' to have a paid-only stream that funded CCC, and IRC for chat (discord is OK). I feel like my extended interest group (i.e tech savvy in-laws and friends) would jump through a pay wall to join this experience. Twitch may be a gateway, but I am unsure the value of a potentially huge audience from Twitch is valuable to the scene currently. i.e. I don't think we are suffering for publicity.
In-laws (surprisingly?) found it very stimulating. They were most engaged by the first day (day 2?) with the video and demos.
I am a big fan of CCC, and would be delighted if Revision went 'back underground' to have a paid-only stream that funded CCC, and IRC for chat (discord is OK). I feel like my extended interest group (i.e tech savvy in-laws and friends) would jump through a pay wall to join this experience. Twitch may be a gateway, but I am unsure the value of a potentially huge audience from Twitch is valuable to the scene currently. i.e. I don't think we are suffering for publicity.
Please check if the compo Amiga 500 is really OCS, and not an Amiga 500+ disguised with a Kick1.x ROM. We've found an Amiga 500 demo that looks defective on a real OCS Amiga 500, but didn't show the same flaws on the Revision stream.
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Is there any reason to assume that the actual reason for the ban is different from what has been communicated already? (I mean communicated by Revision organizers, and not all the hype and assumptions from others, of course.)
wouldn't be more productive to let us know that reason, or point/link to the revision's orga communication about it, rather than just typing sarcastic comment? for one, i'm still not aware of the official reason, and somehow like to believe that i was following the event closely the whole time. also browsed through this thread, maybe i've missed it in the noise of other comments, but wasn't able to find it. and obviously i'm not the only one, as people are still guessing and questioning what happened.
that said, i'm quite puzzled, because demoparties are streaming on the twitch for years already. can't actually remember last time when some demoparty used anything else. and don't see this year's revision having any content that was out of the ordinary comparing to those other/previous parties. knowing exactly what to avoid (censor on stream) would probably be of enormous help to everyone.
I'd guess it was a certain Meteoriks speech... and when lasers burning thru pyramids came up, enough was enough. Some are very sensitive these days. :-)
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wouldn't be more productive to let us know that reason, or point/link to the revision's orga communication about it
"adult nudity" was the reason given by twitch, but noone knows exactly which prod in particular. (most likely wurstgetränks wiggly sexy ass, but might also been a nipple seen in the photo compo)
oh and I also have been in the twitch chat until the incident and haven't noticed any unmoderated racist stuff or nazi slogans. If you have a screenshot, show it. But I know that moderators did their best to fight against spam and rude people which popped up from time to time - mostly it was very civilized though. (compared to internet standards)
I enjoyed discord way more though, once I finally get my ass up and moved there :)
I enjoyed discord way more though, once I finally get my ass up and moved there :)
I was on the stream chat a lot of the time and only saw one random (I believe not even a scener) person being >truly< awful, they were warned by a moderater then I assume quite rightly got kicked out after they conintued to be awful...
genuinely shocked if that was the reason for the ban, maybe I didnt see as the text was flying past super fast but its a bit puzzling...
genuinely shocked if that was the reason for the ban, maybe I didnt see as the text was flying past super fast but its a bit puzzling...
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"adult nudity" was the reason given by twitch, but noone knows exactly which prod in particular.
thanks for the info, i heard lots of reasons, so it's good to know the actual one.
@Bifat:
Bifat, you're right, the A500 compomachine this year was a late model A500 which sports the A500+ motherboard. I didn't have to check, I know this for a fact, as it's my macine :) But it came as an A500 from the factory, with 512K chip, and with 1.3 Kick, so it's not something we downgraded/disguised from an A500+ for this purpose.
However, there is absolutely no guarantees this will be the compomachine for the coming years, so do not count on it. But note we have also no rules which exclude entries using ECS features at this point, even on partial ECS chipsets like - probably - this machine. The only rule really I tend to stick to is, it has to run on either of the compomachines, one is an A500 with 512K+512K RAM, or the A1200/060. So even if an entry requires full ECS, or 1MB chip, or more Fast RAM, or whatever, that's fine by me, but then they have to make it run on the A1200, and I'll record it from there, no problems at all.
BTW, all the above examples happened in the last 15 years since I'm doing this on Easterparties, and elsewhere. And I tend to be flexible even if the A1200 needs some reconfiguring for this purpose. See for example the Void demo this year, where I disabled the data caches on the '060, otherwise it would have crashed, as it was a plain A1200 + 8MB Fast RAM demo. The command I even intentionally left it in the recording, so everyone who knows how an expanded Amiga works can get a clue about what's going on.
So that's my take on the Amiga configs used for compo purposes. Feel free to refer to this post later, in case of discussion or doubts, or questions. :)
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Please check if the compo Amiga 500 is really OCS, and not an Amiga 500+ disguised with a Kick1.x ROM. We've found an Amiga 500 demo that looks defective on a real OCS Amiga 500, but didn't show the same flaws on the Revision stream.
Bifat, you're right, the A500 compomachine this year was a late model A500 which sports the A500+ motherboard. I didn't have to check, I know this for a fact, as it's my macine :) But it came as an A500 from the factory, with 512K chip, and with 1.3 Kick, so it's not something we downgraded/disguised from an A500+ for this purpose.
However, there is absolutely no guarantees this will be the compomachine for the coming years, so do not count on it. But note we have also no rules which exclude entries using ECS features at this point, even on partial ECS chipsets like - probably - this machine. The only rule really I tend to stick to is, it has to run on either of the compomachines, one is an A500 with 512K+512K RAM, or the A1200/060. So even if an entry requires full ECS, or 1MB chip, or more Fast RAM, or whatever, that's fine by me, but then they have to make it run on the A1200, and I'll record it from there, no problems at all.
BTW, all the above examples happened in the last 15 years since I'm doing this on Easterparties, and elsewhere. And I tend to be flexible even if the A1200 needs some reconfiguring for this purpose. See for example the Void demo this year, where I disabled the data caches on the '060, otherwise it would have crashed, as it was a plain A1200 + 8MB Fast RAM demo. The command I even intentionally left it in the recording, so everyone who knows how an expanded Amiga works can get a clue about what's going on.
So that's my take on the Amiga configs used for compo purposes. Feel free to refer to this post later, in case of discussion or doubts, or questions. :)
I'd suggest you replace the Denise chip with a proper OCS one. You can display more sprites on DMA laden displays, and that's exactly what happened here. You're doing the participants and yourself no favour. Some people are working their asses off, others get the extra sprites for free...
Whether the twitch ban was "justified" (...) and whether the ToS were/weren't broken isn't exactly a productive discussion. I'd worry more about learning the lesson and applying it in the future, and to me that means not relying on restrictive platforms that you don't control and that operate in such a broken fashion.
On the subject of the compos: I was a bit confused by the updated oldskool demo rules - the "new & noteworthy" rules section stated that the limit of 2 disk sides was removed, but no other size limit was specified, and the submission info still called for "a standard media image file (disk, cartridge, tape etc) for your platform". So was there effectively no limit? or did I miss anything?
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I'd suggest you replace the Denise chip with a proper OCS one. You can display more sprites on DMA laden displays, and that's exactly what happened here. You're doing the participants and yourself no favour. Some people are working their asses off, others get the extra sprites for free...
I for one prefer and usually target OCS, but still don't see a point of bitching about ECS in the amiga demo compo, while AGA A1200+060+128mb ram is okay?!? also, noticed that most of the entries actually had OCS or ECS marked on the partymeister info screen this year, and that was okay for me. my only problems are prods that are marked and advertised like OCS, but require 1mb (or more!!!) of chip, or sometimes even something crazier than that. (not to name names, but let's just say that i'm still waiting for "final" versions of some "OCS" demos that will actually run on OCS amiga)
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"adult nudity" was the reason given by twitch, but noone knows exactly which prod in particular. (most likely wurstgetränks wiggly sexy ass, but might also been a nipple seen in the photo compo)
Thank you
Bonefish: I didn't say it was "okay" to mix OCS and AGA.
Here we have an issue of potential misguidance: It's clearly a Kick1.x console window, which most people would associate with OCS, but the compo machine isn't OCS. So when you watch the demo later on OCS you'll get garbage on screen. To my knowledge the Amiga 500+ was always shipped with Kick2.0x.
Here we have an issue of potential misguidance: It's clearly a Kick1.x console window, which most people would associate with OCS, but the compo machine isn't OCS. So when you watch the demo later on OCS you'll get garbage on screen. To my knowledge the Amiga 500+ was always shipped with Kick2.0x.
bonefish: fwiw, i was honestly under the impression that people were aware of that two word explanation already but just didn't want to accept it.
as for the future of demoscene streams on twitch, most of those streams probably broke the twitch TOS in some way, shape or form. that TOS document is not hard to look up and quite clearly explains what is allowed and what not. it's not very compatible with demoscene customs as you will notice. so to keep streaming demoscene events on twitch organizers will probably have to make a choice between adapting their rules and practices or finding another way to fly under the radar of the twitch banhammer operators.
as for the future of demoscene streams on twitch, most of those streams probably broke the twitch TOS in some way, shape or form. that TOS document is not hard to look up and quite clearly explains what is allowed and what not. it's not very compatible with demoscene customs as you will notice. so to keep streaming demoscene events on twitch organizers will probably have to make a choice between adapting their rules and practices or finding another way to fly under the radar of the twitch banhammer operators.
If it's technically feasible (considering the non paid volunteer aspect of demoparties) and is enough to avoid this kind of accident, I think it would be a reasonable concession to keep the demoscene rules separate from the streaming platform ToS, but censor/blur/etc. the stream on the fly.
So that photo and those animations would have been accepted, available on the party intranet, and later uploaded to scene.net as they are, but on Twitch that nipple and dancing butt would have been blurred for example.
So that photo and those animations would have been accepted, available on the party intranet, and later uploaded to scene.net as they are, but on Twitch that nipple and dancing butt would have been blurred for example.
