Demoscene Ethics
category: general [glöplog]
Quote:
I saw sceners shouting „SCHEISSE“ and they realized that this caused pain in the face of the newbie participant - and the shouter went to him to clap him on the shoulder „this is what we do“ and the smile came back to his face.
The faces of the security guys when ppl started chanting "DROGEN UND GEWALT!" in the tent at breakpoint, and then someone told them "dont worry". priceless =D
If anything, "demoscene ethics" are along the lines of things like "you don't rip the work of a fellow scener and pass it off as your own". And "Namevoting is satans toothpaste".
When i puke on your shoes, just do whatever you feel you have to do - i dont need a manifesto for this.
(and what docd said)
Quote:
But what we SHOULD NOT DO is:
Trying to change the rituals, traditions and general habits of the scene.
Maybe it's a matter of definition what you call a tradition, and what counts as social change. I think the two go hand in hand, and traditions can - and should - change with the people that make them. And, DocD, I think that perhaps you've been a bigger part of that change than you give yourself credit for...
There's a quote from a Revision post-mortem conversation a few years back that has really stuck with me: "Is it just me, or was this year's Revision more rainbow-coloured than usual?" It's true - I do feel that the scene has shifted away from the "lad culture" that was dominating it 10-15 years ago. I'm sure there are people on the scene who would look down on this as the rise of "wokeness" (shudder), but to me it's a sign that people feel *safer* expressing themselves.
And as that social change happens, we're creating new traditions and rituals, and I think we can afford to do a bit of garbage-collection on the old ones. We can still be loud and and anarchic while deciding that we should have more rainbows and furries and less puking on shoes and playing porn on your monitor on a 24h loop. Let's not get stuck in the mindset of "this is just what we always do".
Shouting SCHEISSE... not really a fan of it, but don't particularly want to take it away from people either. Surely "think about whether the recipient is in on the joke first" isn't too much to ask, though?
I've always experienced the scene as one of the most inclusive communities there is, and that from the very beginning. Yes, we had this "elitism", but that was mostly part of a game of teasing each other.
Before I entered the scene at age 16, I did not get along with the world at all. Since my childhood, I was an outsider, nobody was willing to accept the way I act and feel.
This was completely different in the scene, and still is.
I also think the scene always has been very reflective, unlike other communities. We started with "positive discrimination" with "girls get in for free". We had an active discussion over years about when it was time to end this positive discrimination, and I think we were spot on with the timing.
Also, as sceners most of us naturally did not give a fuck about how other people looked. You may say that this is not the same as active inclusion, but it comes close. People never minded that other people would appear "weird" to normal people, because we ALL appeared weird to other people.
We had a bit of too much positive discrimination when the first "on paper"/not-just-mentally disabled people entered the scene, and did applaud a bit too much if someone did a shitty entry just because we wanted to be "inclusive". That also has settled.
I personally know multiple trans or "sexually diverse" people inside the scene for years, people who told me that there was no other place where they felt that welcome.
To close this off, I will do one final potentially offensive sentence: Some people should maybe spend less time writing "code of conducts", and instead practice their skills in running a competition so they don't fuck up the entries fellow sceners put months of work into, which I find very disrespectful.
Before I entered the scene at age 16, I did not get along with the world at all. Since my childhood, I was an outsider, nobody was willing to accept the way I act and feel.
This was completely different in the scene, and still is.
I also think the scene always has been very reflective, unlike other communities. We started with "positive discrimination" with "girls get in for free". We had an active discussion over years about when it was time to end this positive discrimination, and I think we were spot on with the timing.
Also, as sceners most of us naturally did not give a fuck about how other people looked. You may say that this is not the same as active inclusion, but it comes close. People never minded that other people would appear "weird" to normal people, because we ALL appeared weird to other people.
We had a bit of too much positive discrimination when the first "on paper"/not-just-mentally disabled people entered the scene, and did applaud a bit too much if someone did a shitty entry just because we wanted to be "inclusive". That also has settled.
I personally know multiple trans or "sexually diverse" people inside the scene for years, people who told me that there was no other place where they felt that welcome.
To close this off, I will do one final potentially offensive sentence: Some people should maybe spend less time writing "code of conducts", and instead practice their skills in running a competition so they don't fuck up the entries fellow sceners put months of work into, which I find very disrespectful.
Well said.
Scamp +1
To add something, the first time you visit a new subculture you are "scared". I remember the first time I took taekwondo lessons I was scared to get my ass kicked! Couldnd't wait for the second time when the first was over!
To add something, the first time you visit a new subculture you are "scared". I remember the first time I took taekwondo lessons I was scared to get my ass kicked! Couldnd't wait for the second time when the first was over!
Quote:
To close this off, I will do one final potentially offensive sentence: Some people should maybe spend less time writing "code of conducts", and instead practice their skills in running a competition so they don't fuck up the entries fellow sceners put months of work into, which I find very disrespectful.
I've tried to communicate many times to them about this, but it goes nowhere, and there are enough people enabling them that I've walked away from facets of the demoscene just to avoid the stress of standing up for the values and standards I have. It's been ultimately healthier to avoid them where possible.
Quote:
And a bunch of white men saying no, you're the problem.
... what ...
Meanwhile, there are many of us who’ve been discriminated against, harassed or worse. A CoC at least says party orgas might deal with any issues, and visitors have agreed that they won’t be a dick.
If this is too much, then there’s no way in hell I’m going to visit your party. I’ve heard too many bad stories, it’s a risk I’m not prepared to take.
And, seriously, the horrible reaction here to *an effort to try and stop bad things happening in the scene* is seriously making me consider quitting, and just releasing my stuff elsewhere that’s a bit less toxic. But, I guess a bunch of people who don’t face any discrimination in life are going to carry on whining about any attempt to protect people.
If this is too much, then there’s no way in hell I’m going to visit your party. I’ve heard too many bad stories, it’s a risk I’m not prepared to take.
And, seriously, the horrible reaction here to *an effort to try and stop bad things happening in the scene* is seriously making me consider quitting, and just releasing my stuff elsewhere that’s a bit less toxic. But, I guess a bunch of people who don’t face any discrimination in life are going to carry on whining about any attempt to protect people.
Quote:
Maybe it's a matter of definition what you call a tradition, and what counts as social change. I think the two go hand in hand, and traditions can - and should - change with the people that make them. And, DocD, I think that perhaps you've been a bigger part of that change than you give yourself credit for...
Thank you gasman. Maybe the visitors are just more mature
Porn and puke are almost eliminated and you are right, bad behaviour is not a tradition.
My overall impression is, that the parties are todayvery peaceful and more respectfull than ever.
But i go with Lynn aswell, Assholes in reallife stay assholes in scene and should learn discipline - or go elsewhere. Even when "my overall impression" is good, doesnt mean that everything is fine. Its not.
My point was mainly the "elitism" and the "sarcastic humor".
Bad behaviour, trans- and homophibia, racism, sexism and violence are not to be tolerated.
And sorry, these issues are a thing in scene.
Its not that the demoscene doesnt have such individiuals with a toxic mindset - its just not so obvious.
Iam from time to time frightended, when a scener on social media shares thoughts i´ve never expected him/her of to have and then i really dont know what he/her wants in this multicultural/multiethnical/multireligious(or not)/multigender/multieverything community called demoscene. And i feel so sad about this, because on site those people act totally different.
Anhow when a website helps raising awareness, im with it.
This is the way.
negate everything in that article and you´re invited to join alcatraz :P
alia: I've been "discriminated against, harassed or worse". Been there, done that, did not get the T-Shirt.
But you don't speak for me, and that website doesn't either.
We are a community of a couple of thousand different people, who are diverse. That includes having different viewpoints in regards of ethics.
You are trying to setup rules without consulting anyone. No, this is not how our scene works.
If you think that you absolutely must insist of feeling more marginalized than others and believe this is a competition of feeling suppressed, it's probably not going to work.
And your ultra-aggressive response to anyone having a different view that yourself speaks clear words: This is not about wishing that everyone is treated nicely and equal, but it's about you wishing to be treated specially for reasons unknown to me.
I don't give a fuck about your looks, your sexual identity or preferences. I've been rude to people in the past, but not because of their looks or sexual identity or preferences. It simply does not matter for myself, and from what I have seen over the past 25 years, I highly doubt it matters to a lot of people.
Everybody will handle this differently, but personally I judge people inside their scene based on their actions and skills.
Your first release has been 6 months ago, and you still have quite a road to go. I encourage you to do that and wish you the best.
Maybe the creative chaos and freedom simply is too new for you, and you haven't adapted yet.
I think you are not in a position to judge about us, sorry.
But you don't speak for me, and that website doesn't either.
We are a community of a couple of thousand different people, who are diverse. That includes having different viewpoints in regards of ethics.
You are trying to setup rules without consulting anyone. No, this is not how our scene works.
If you think that you absolutely must insist of feeling more marginalized than others and believe this is a competition of feeling suppressed, it's probably not going to work.
And your ultra-aggressive response to anyone having a different view that yourself speaks clear words: This is not about wishing that everyone is treated nicely and equal, but it's about you wishing to be treated specially for reasons unknown to me.
I don't give a fuck about your looks, your sexual identity or preferences. I've been rude to people in the past, but not because of their looks or sexual identity or preferences. It simply does not matter for myself, and from what I have seen over the past 25 years, I highly doubt it matters to a lot of people.
Everybody will handle this differently, but personally I judge people inside their scene based on their actions and skills.
Your first release has been 6 months ago, and you still have quite a road to go. I encourage you to do that and wish you the best.
Maybe the creative chaos and freedom simply is too new for you, and you haven't adapted yet.
I think you are not in a position to judge about us, sorry.
Quote:
To close this off, I will do one final potentially offensive sentence: Some people should maybe spend less time writing "code of conducts", and instead practice their skills in running a competition so they don't fuck up the entries fellow sceners put months of work into, which I find very disrespectful.
Why not just give proper feedback for the organizers, of what ever you are referring to, instead of writing a potentially offensive sentence? You're likely one of the most experienced demoparty organizers in the scene, so giving proper guidance and feedback to other organizers would be much more effective and way more appreciated.
I wanted to make this point because I believe this is a matter of priorities.
Also, alia has been awarded "organizer of the year" recently, so they would know. SCNR.
(Btw, no, I have never done a streaming demoparty, I don't have any competences in that. I would have been of no use. But see RC55's post.)
(Btw, no, I have never done a streaming demoparty, I don't have any competences in that. I would have been of no use. But see RC55's post.)
Quote:
A CoC at least says party orgas might deal with any issues, and visitors have agreed that they won’t be a dick.
If this is too much, then there’s no way in hell I’m going to visit your party. I’ve heard too many bad stories, it’s a risk I’m not prepared to take.
Sorry, not sorry: This is insulting.
You assume that party organizers tolerate such behaviour?
We dont.
You think that a CoC avoids people of beeing asses?
If this would be so easy...we wouldnt need securities, police or even firemen.
Alia really. Reflect yourself and your behaviour:
Quote:
And, seriously, the horrible reaction here to *an effort to try and stop bad things happening in the scene* is seriously making me consider quitting, and just releasing my stuff elsewhere that’s a bit less toxic.
I´ve seen nothing horrible here.
The scene itself is far away from beeing horrible....its maybe just not so cozy than your livingroom parties were you are in charge.
You want to place a "toxic" Label on a global community that consists several thousands of diverse people which evolves for more than 35 years?
Really?
How self-righteous.
If you want to quit - bon voyage.
To get back on topic:
I believe Code of Conducts follow the same logic as governments trying to outlaw encryption.
Because assholes will simply ignore the CoC, and criminals will simply ignore encryption being outlawed, because they are criminals.
On a positive note: I do not object to someone putting up such a CoC website.
But I will ignore it. I want to improve, I want to be hurting people less, but to do that I will not consult some generic CoC, I will consult myself by reflecting, I will consult my loved ones, I will consult my friends, and I will consult my doctor.
I am far too diverse for a CoC to help me improve myself.
I believe Code of Conducts follow the same logic as governments trying to outlaw encryption.
Because assholes will simply ignore the CoC, and criminals will simply ignore encryption being outlawed, because they are criminals.
On a positive note: I do not object to someone putting up such a CoC website.
But I will ignore it. I want to improve, I want to be hurting people less, but to do that I will not consult some generic CoC, I will consult myself by reflecting, I will consult my loved ones, I will consult my friends, and I will consult my doctor.
I am far too diverse for a CoC to help me improve myself.
Seriously, anyone obsessed with pointless self-victimization should consult a doctor instead of trying to impose your (read: not mine) CoC(k) upon our beloved party spirit - these are your problems, not ours.
If you cannot handle social interaction better stick to sofascening instead.
If you cannot handle social interaction better stick to sofascening instead.
Quote:
I am far too diverse for a CoC to help me improve myself.
As far as i saw, that website is not about a CoC - its about raising awareness.
And theres nothing wrong with.
What T$ said.
Quote:
If you cannot handle social interaction better stick to sofascening instead.
I can't wait to the next SofaWorld event to piss on all my friends.
docd: As said, I don't have a problem with the website.
It just feels a bit silly to me. I've been getting beaten up and sued (since I was 15) for the way I express. I am seeing a neurologist for years.
How the fuck is "you can try to change the subject and redirect things in a friendly direction" going to help me? This sounds so naïve to me.
Most of the people I have met in the scene clearly are on the autistic spectrum, too. Many have anxiety disorders. For some demoparties are the most intense social interaction they have all year. Who is going to learn anything here that actually helps anyone?
But again: I should not generalize. Maybe the website is of help to some people. Maybe we have people in the scene who actually don't know those basics of how communication would should look like and can learn from a website.
That's why I am fine with it when used as guidance. With it becoming a "petition", it feels threatening to me.
It just feels a bit silly to me. I've been getting beaten up and sued (since I was 15) for the way I express. I am seeing a neurologist for years.
How the fuck is "you can try to change the subject and redirect things in a friendly direction" going to help me? This sounds so naïve to me.
Most of the people I have met in the scene clearly are on the autistic spectrum, too. Many have anxiety disorders. For some demoparties are the most intense social interaction they have all year. Who is going to learn anything here that actually helps anyone?
But again: I should not generalize. Maybe the website is of help to some people. Maybe we have people in the scene who actually don't know those basics of how communication would should look like and can learn from a website.
That's why I am fine with it when used as guidance. With it becoming a "petition", it feels threatening to me.
scamp: you are mistaken on some of your assumptions about alia. a) alia been part of demoscene for much longer then 6 months. not that that should matter in the slightest to the discussion at hand, people should feel welcome and safe regardless if they are newbs or veterans or decide to change nicknames. b) alia didn't win organizer of the year, alia won a compo where you would submit an idea for a compo, the idea was to have the "organizer of the year" compo.
also, your comment about demo not having been played properly on compos is petty to say the least. people make mistakes, you as a long time party organizer should know how easy it is for things to go horribly wrong. people are trying the best they can, sure it didn't go smooth, but there are surely better ways to express your criticism and help people improve, you even have the option to not release on their events anymore, so please don't lower yourself to this kind of rethoric.
i know you never shy away from speaking your mind bluntly, and i understand where it's coming from but right here and now you're being an ass, deliberately alienating other active sceners from our community with your words, so please be mindful and respectful. it's even what the thread is about.
also, your comment about demo not having been played properly on compos is petty to say the least. people make mistakes, you as a long time party organizer should know how easy it is for things to go horribly wrong. people are trying the best they can, sure it didn't go smooth, but there are surely better ways to express your criticism and help people improve, you even have the option to not release on their events anymore, so please don't lower yourself to this kind of rethoric.
i know you never shy away from speaking your mind bluntly, and i understand where it's coming from but right here and now you're being an ass, deliberately alienating other active sceners from our community with your words, so please be mindful and respectful. it's even what the thread is about.
Quote:
here and now you're being an ass,
...and this is now the discussion level you prefer?
phew.
Maybe Pouet needs a CoC.
Hi, Uctumi here, I'm part of the group of demosceners that conceived the document and I endorse it.
Just to clarify, it's NOT a "code of conduct" and we made sure it wasn't written like one.
This document is just intended to raise awareness and provide suggestions.
What the document states are NOT rules or laws, and nobody is forced to follow any of these suggestions.
If you don't like some of the points, or none of them, simply don't follow the suggestions, it's up to each person.
The main goal is to get people thinking and reflecting on issues of the demoscene and, judging by this lively thread, we may be achieving this goal.
With so many events going online during 2020 I think many of us had some time to go inwards and meditate on the displeasure we might have caused others or that others may have caused us. We also collected experiences from people close to us who were discouraged or feared participating in the demoscene because of different experiences they had interacting with demosceners. For that we don't consider the demoscene to be much worse than any other social environment, but we believe there's room for improvement.
I think meditating about these subjects is a good thing to do to get prepared for the in person events that are hopefully going to return in 2021.
I hope you all have a great new year and that we leave behind the tough situations we've been through during 2020.
Just to clarify, it's NOT a "code of conduct" and we made sure it wasn't written like one.
This document is just intended to raise awareness and provide suggestions.
What the document states are NOT rules or laws, and nobody is forced to follow any of these suggestions.
If you don't like some of the points, or none of them, simply don't follow the suggestions, it's up to each person.
The main goal is to get people thinking and reflecting on issues of the demoscene and, judging by this lively thread, we may be achieving this goal.
With so many events going online during 2020 I think many of us had some time to go inwards and meditate on the displeasure we might have caused others or that others may have caused us. We also collected experiences from people close to us who were discouraged or feared participating in the demoscene because of different experiences they had interacting with demosceners. For that we don't consider the demoscene to be much worse than any other social environment, but we believe there's room for improvement.
I think meditating about these subjects is a good thing to do to get prepared for the in person events that are hopefully going to return in 2021.
I hope you all have a great new year and that we leave behind the tough situations we've been through during 2020.
ps: Ok, I was wrong in regards of the "organizer of the year" thing. Alia: I am sorry for that one.
But yes, number and quality of releases is one of the ways you earn respect in our scene.
And alia isn't shy of words, there has been plenty of "white men"-insults in this thread, so I am sure Alia can handle this.
I always find it funny how people who ask for CoCs start raging if they don't get what they want. It really makes this all ring so hollow.
But yes, number and quality of releases is one of the ways you earn respect in our scene.
And alia isn't shy of words, there has been plenty of "white men"-insults in this thread, so I am sure Alia can handle this.
I always find it funny how people who ask for CoCs start raging if they don't get what they want. It really makes this all ring so hollow.