pouët.net

https://www.demoscene-ethics.org/

Anyone else had a chance to read this? I had a few thoughts, but I wanted to be careful to articulate them as they aren't totally aligned with the message on this site.

I fully support the concept of holding people accountable for bigoted views or calling out stereotypes under bad faith. My experience of this is utterly mild, in as far I'm Irish and often have people deliberately mispronouncing my name or making stupid cultural references to pots of gold, potatoes and tarmaccing driveways. It doesn't bother me that much honestly, I'd just roll my eyes and move on, or occasionally see the funny side (the British would lose a third of their food intake without potatoes!).

I've always been one to call out egregious examples of people making others uncomfortable - like when a female scener was cornered and photographed at a party I ran years back. I didn't hold back to say this was fucking out of order.

A younger scener was upset one year when a drunk scener started yelling out how shit he thought the production was, so I said to the drunk scener "don't be such a fucking dickhead" and then I consoled the visibly upset younger scener. I don't think said drunken scener would change their habits but I said my bit and left it at that.

The thing is, these anecdotes are the minority experience and the vast majority of people are decent and have good intentions. Some people are a bit obnoxious or overbearing but you have to be pragmatic to an extent - you may have a brutal sharp critic with insane talent (think like dubmood or deadmau5). People are complicated.

Supporting new talent is important, but I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to offer constructive and friendly criticism and to a certain extent I'm not a huge fan of policing people's tone because it might hurt someone's feelings. I'd like to think most people have a support group around them who could say "well, whoever said that is a bit of a dick" or "well it wasn't bad for a first try".

Is it really the case that demosceners are so sensitive that criticism is as devastating as this implies? I'd like to believe that isn't the case. I've had the sting of having stuff not making it through pre-selection but a beer and a chat later you dust yourself off and try again later. I've had people say Sundown lacked atmosphere so I levelled up for the next year. My tunes have been slaughtered critically. (Well, some of them are pretty bad).

The thing is, with these kinds of manifestos I wonder where the line ends up being drawn and whether we get to a point of diminishing returns - Removing of the piggie and thumb down maybe? Banning alcohol at parties? The bulletpoints are mollycoddling to the point of patronising. It made me think about Judo training, where your first six months are about learning how to fall or take a hit.

Quite often I see with these kinds of manifestos are corporate-ethics style policies and tumblr/twitter-esque consensus-thinking proposals that get foisted onto audiences who either already adhere to these beliefs or have no intention / ability to change their behaviour (especially when drunk). Would you expect to ask every football fan to cheer if either side scored at a game because it was great sportsmanship?

I always felt the demoscene was a meritocracy and that made it special. It's undeniable that if TBL are rumoured to release at a party the sense of anticipation trends upwards rapidly (pointing at you - pandering to elitism!). Much as we can applaud good efforts, we may well be thrilled at the top tier productions too. I don't mind the odd "fuckings to" either as I equate it to hip hop beef, part of the culture but don't take it too seriously. The scroller wars are long over so that kind of stuff can be infused with some irony.

Furthermore, if there are literally hundreds of tired, drunk and caffeinated people of variable social temperament crammed in a hall, you will get high emotions and (ahem) compromised emotional regulation - so I guess you have to roll with that to a certain extent. I struggle to think that our culture is defined by the minority incidental experiences, but at the same time I do acknowledge that my perspective is my own and I'll be subject to biases and privileges I can't always articulate.

To me I just try to not be a dick to people, but I have realistic expectations of people and don't let people have rent in my headspace if it doesn't serve any good purpose.

"Don't be a dick" is a good code to live by, but there will always be those who need to be told what is and isn't being a dick. I know I've been an asshole when I was younger without realizing that until years later.

It's good that we have productions that we deem to be special, that we find inspiring, examples of the kind of excellence everyone strives for. I see no contradiction between recognizing the merit of such productions and what the manifesto says about feedback in general.

It's 2:40 AM here and I'm a bit sleepy, but after a cursory reading I find myself pretty much agreeing with the manifesto. I appreciate it that it places some of the onus on the creator who is on the receiving end of criticism:



I've seen people who fail to do this, who get defensive in the face of continued constructive criticism and double down on their old ways, and act like they're entitled to acclaim. That's also toxic behavior and something I'd rather not see in the community.

Very good point. I've seen that for sure.

is it ethical not to take prod at a party?

do all get a say in defining the ethics?

i think we need a few more seminars where safety and diversity are keywords, just from the top of my head

That. As with all things a code of conduct also has two sides, because for obvious reasons it can be a good thing and certainly is always well meant, but it can also be misused by people trying to use it for "revenge" when they feel offended by sth. or texting to use it to force their believes / censorship.

*people trying to use

This was quite commonplace in the early days of football.

Sure, but would you like to enforce it?

Is it secret who's in the club? Can anyone take part? Certainly not everyone had a chance to take part in it.


This sounds so belitteing. As if all scenes are puking farting infants that needs to be educated. Did the writer of that manifesto checked their prejudices?


Where can/need I hand in my promotional material for approval?

Don't get me wrong. I really support the intention of this and we always try to make Deadline as inclusive as possible, as orgas there. If you know me you know that I'm the first to step up if I see injustice or people not treated well. But, I cannot put my name under some of these ridiculously patronising sentences, sorry.

This isn't a code of conduct, though. This is a "maybe try being a bit more like this" list of suggestions. It's true that seemingly noble initiatives can be used to cover nebulous intent. That said, I don't know who wrote the manifesto, but reality404 is the first signatory, and I don't find them to be the kind of person who will use it to send you to demoscene gulag for arbitrary reasons.

Overall, my view is that codes of conduct shouldn't be enforced eagerly, but they can be good to have as a backup. A good code of conduct is something you can ignore if you have a good idea of what "being a dick" is and make effort not to behave like that.

That will occasionally fail, someone will occasionally be a dick, someone else will be quick to point out that it's actually OK to be a dick if you're drunk, and we'll have yet another rehash of the same tired old arguments that will devolve into "does this mean I can no longer say 'titmouse' in my demo" by page three. I'd like to avoid at least some of that, and maybe a document that says "don't tell someone to make you a sandwich" would help.



Some are. I can cite 20 years of experience of visiting demoparties and about 10 years of experience of organizing demoparties here.



We'll all having a say right now. I trust that every demoparty organizer worth their salt will listen to the community if they choose to implement and enforce a CoC.

Well ok, I have to agree. Particularly I have to think of some oldschool demosceners who are stuck in the 80s regarding their manners and machismo world views. But I don't think you will reach them by a CoC or similar, it might actually backfire. One needs to kick their ass if they misbehave and clearly tell them to stop being a dick or kick them out. Maybe this is what needs to be enforced more.

That being said, I believe we're not in charge to enforce a place of happy rainbows and avoid dissence at all circumstances.
Someone will have the opinion that every other platform than X/Y/Z sucks and voice it. Or will tell that the demo played sucks, not knowing that it's yours.
One needs to be able to handle this, because it happens and that's life.
You won't make friends with everyone.

Btw. I don't want to endorse such a behaviour and maybe a document like this makes people start thinking about being nicer to each other, which is sth we should all strife for. But there's a fine line of good advise and being patronising, I guess that's the point I'm trying to make here.
Sorry about the rambling, I'll try to stop posting now :)

*But there's a fine line between giving good advise and being patronising, I guess that's the point I'm trying to make here.
(I need a post edit function badly)

Sorry, one more example:

I don't like the language police / thought police vibe this one (unintentionally) has.
Not everyone is a native English speaker and I can give you a perfectly sincere "I didn't mean to" and a perfectly unsincere "I am sorry that I offended you". If you're a beginner speaker of English this will make you anxious that you even might make a mistake when trying to excuse yourself. (Eg for sth that might have been a misunderstanding because of your bad English)

This is the kind of thing that probably shouldn't be codified in a document like this, as well intended it may be. Everyone should be able to identify and accept a sincere apology, no matter the words used.

Also this is already anticipating the bad and might read like "start practicing your apologies, because we will be offended / because you will fuck up"

Language matters unfortunately, and "I'm sorry if you're offended" isn't an apology, it's telling the offended person they shouldn't be offended. This is the very reason why having a site with a few clear examples helps.

Fantastic news, practiced phrases are what make a visit to McDonalds or a call to a service center such a welcoming experience, I can't wait until they'll be enforced at demoparties!

...and we're back to patronizing. Everyone should be able to identify and accept a sincere apology, no matter the words used. At least when given in person.
If we're talking about written communication only, of course then only the words matter, because it's all that's there. (Although even there you'll usually find some clues in the subtext to get the person's intentions)

I mean, do we have to be this specific and lack critical thinking to determine the intentions of what people say, especially if they aren't native speakers? Please, cut people some slack instead of saying "Please be advised, we are easily offended and will take the worst interpretation of what you are trying to say, so here's a convenient list of sanctioned responses that we are willing to accept.".

I'd like to be able to think I can say JCO's Kevin demos are fucking toilet just as much as Coronoid is outstanding and groundbreaking (I would hope JCO would be bemused by this as he surely has the self-awareness to know he's a provocateur). Do we have to take everything so seriously? This tip-toe culture seems to keep moving the line in the sand from non-prejudice to not offending, then to not saying anything that might cause disagreement.

All this petty conflicts would be solved by hugging more. Or fighting with elbows while the pandemic lasts.

On a more general note: the scene is generally awesome, but. Not always, and not for everyone. If you're white, straight and male you're probably not going to see most of the issues outside of the worst cases. It probably feels this isn't something that needs to be dealt with, rather than a bunch of people getting together to deal with a bunch of real issues that affect people.

Possibly the most common example is women going to parties, and getting asked first thing who they came with, because obviously they must be somebody's girlfriend, no? If you're a coder who's really interested in realtime graphics and you just turned up to your first party, this is just really insulting.

But do you think the people asking that think they're being a dick, or do you think they're just trying to be friendly and make people feel welcome? They're actually trying hard to make the party better, but it's a really shitty experience for the other person.

I've had quite a few people tell me about this happening regularly. Again, a site with some clear examples helps massively.

This isn't a minor thing, I know 2 people who were interested in the scene, made the effort to visit a party, and the experience was shitty so they won't go back. These are good coders we're losing to toxic bullshit. This, unfortunately, is why we need a site explaining ethics.

(And yes, we have the usual situation of a bunch of people saying there's a problem, can we maybe do something about it? And a bunch of white men saying no, you're the problem.)

That is a good point. For example, I understand that correct pronouns are important to trans, non-binary or other LGBT+ individuals. I'm also Finnish and we don't even have gendered pronouns. I don't have an intuitive grasp on their significance, and I will occasionally fail because I'm used to someone being a "he" or a "she". Without a strong framework for what those words mean, it takes more effort from me than it does from a native English speaker.

I think it's ok to "slip up" every now and then, so to speak, as long as you're acting in good faith and try your best. I admit I have seen the kind of language policing you describe on Twitter, where people are eager to latch on the first even slightly improper word they can sniff out, always assuming bad faith, with no concept of "benefit of the doubt". I hope we're better than Twitter here.

That said, because most of us aren't native English speakers, these points about the nuances of communication that might seem obvious or even condescending to some might be helpful to others.



You're implying that we will have to start speaking newspeak all the time, which, as these example phrases are meant for the specific situation of having something to apologize about, implies that we'll be offending each other constantly.