Underground Conference 10
category: parties [glöplog]
The studies on the effectiveness of face masks are non-conclusive. But it's quite certaint they help against people accidentially spitting while talking, and they limit the reach of aerosols you put out.
The strict requirement for face masks only exists for dancing and for performances on stage.
For face-to-face encounters with other sceners there is the "masks off / pants off" system as described. This way we leave the decision to those who are interacting, while not playing mask Gestapo.
Unlike the cloth masks most people use, the (certified) medical surgical masks we are providing allow you to breathe pretty normally, so it should not be much of a nuisance.
The strict requirement for face masks only exists for dancing and for performances on stage.
For face-to-face encounters with other sceners there is the "masks off / pants off" system as described. This way we leave the decision to those who are interacting, while not playing mask Gestapo.
Unlike the cloth masks most people use, the (certified) medical surgical masks we are providing allow you to breathe pretty normally, so it should not be much of a nuisance.
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Sounds absolutely amazing and I love this commons sense approach. However, what is the rational behind the face mask requirement? Based on what evidence is that even effective?
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-face-masks-what-you-need-to-know
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The studies on the effectiveness of face masks are non-conclusive. But it's quite certaint they help against people accidentially spitting while talking, and they limit the reach of aerosols you put out.
This doesn't say anything about the effectiveness however, merely that it blocks some particles. Also for this to be relevant you have to assume that asymptomatic people actually transmit the virus, which seems to be rare. * **
The mask requirement is also based on the idea that the 1,5 meter rule can't be observed everywhere. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest the 1,5 meter rule is even effective to begin with. In my opinion, these rules are not designed to control the virus but to control us.
And are these your rules or rules from the German government? And if these are your rules, are you than also going to take responsibility if something goes wrong because of your rules? These masks were not designed to exercise or dance in, and there are sound reasons why exemptions are made for people with respiratory problems. Combine that with possible heat, dehydration and the physical shape a lot of us are in and this might not end well. Are you really so sure that you are not creating a bigger risk than the risk you claim to manage?
You write:
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At a level you'd expect from a proper Nerd and based on recent studies, we've eliminated each and every possible way of transmitting the Corona virus for the event.
Scientist know they don’t provide any certainty, I don’t see how you can claim that you can.
Sources (I can't post links because I don't have any Glöps):
* Pubmed.gov: Look for "A Study on Infectivity of Asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 Carriers"
** Youtube.com: Look for "Mario Van Kerkhove Asymptomatic"
Maria van Kerkhove was put in her place a day later but I believe the information is solid.
I didn't think I'd ever read a demoparty website with scientific references. Nice!
Gabbie: "evidence" requires (several) (long-term) studies... this whole covid-19 shit is too new to state anything evidence-based. that's exactly why there's diversity in how countries and their health organisations tackle this shit.
Gabbie: This is getting a little bit too much tin-foil-hat'ish for me, sorry.
What particle sizes and droplets surgical medical masks block is established science, N95 masks are used since 1972. It's wasted time to discuss that.
There have been lots of studies on this in the last 50 years. It's established that both N95 and surgical masks filter virus droplets and provide benefit:
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/49/2/275/405108
There are also first studies emerging on effectiveness on effectiveness against the novel corona virus: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2
The study you cite does not counter any of that.
Of course this says nothing about how well unregulated done-at-home cloth masks work, or non-certified paper masks, which is what is mostly worn today in the general public. As there is no standard, this can range anywhere between "works as well" or "person was breathing toxic substances contained in the cloth". It appears pretty impossible to study such a vast basket of unknowns.
I am not saying that governments don't tend to abuse a situation of crisis for power grabs, that's pretty much how most dictatorships begin. But as we know from history, and can see in present in quite a bunch of countries, this is done by creating a virtual enemy, creating hate, and building upon insecurities of people. Controlling people by forcing them to use face masks? Sorry, that's a Pinky and the Brain kind of plan.
Anyway: Should have any UC participant have an issue with the rule or special needs, they can contact the organizers to discuss this, there is a big fat bold button on the website for that :)
I don't have the desire to turn this thread into a general discussion of Covid-19 other than direct and addressable concerns of those who wish to participate in the event safely. So please don't.
What particle sizes and droplets surgical medical masks block is established science, N95 masks are used since 1972. It's wasted time to discuss that.
There have been lots of studies on this in the last 50 years. It's established that both N95 and surgical masks filter virus droplets and provide benefit:
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/49/2/275/405108
There are also first studies emerging on effectiveness on effectiveness against the novel corona virus: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2
The study you cite does not counter any of that.
Of course this says nothing about how well unregulated done-at-home cloth masks work, or non-certified paper masks, which is what is mostly worn today in the general public. As there is no standard, this can range anywhere between "works as well" or "person was breathing toxic substances contained in the cloth". It appears pretty impossible to study such a vast basket of unknowns.
I am not saying that governments don't tend to abuse a situation of crisis for power grabs, that's pretty much how most dictatorships begin. But as we know from history, and can see in present in quite a bunch of countries, this is done by creating a virtual enemy, creating hate, and building upon insecurities of people. Controlling people by forcing them to use face masks? Sorry, that's a Pinky and the Brain kind of plan.
Anyway: Should have any UC participant have an issue with the rule or special needs, they can contact the organizers to discuss this, there is a big fat bold button on the website for that :)
I don't have the desire to turn this thread into a general discussion of Covid-19 other than direct and addressable concerns of those who wish to participate in the event safely. So please don't.
There is plenty space for physical distancing inside the party location, and no need to wear a mask all the time except for crowded spots. Thus visiting UC is most likely more safe than a trip to the local supermarket :)
@Gabbie: Healthcare for people which cannot move on their own or orthopedic surgery can be physically demanding as well, so far wasn´t a reason for not using masks there.
And only visitors reasonable enough for knowing their limits (and help others in doing so) are allowed on the party anyway.
Note that reasonable includes skipping the event in case you´re a high risk person or have a high chance of becoming a super spreader, too.
@Gabbie: Healthcare for people which cannot move on their own or orthopedic surgery can be physically demanding as well, so far wasn´t a reason for not using masks there.
And only visitors reasonable enough for knowing their limits (and help others in doing so) are allowed on the party anyway.
Note that reasonable includes skipping the event in case you´re a high risk person or have a high chance of becoming a super spreader, too.
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Gabbie: This is getting a little bit too much tin-foil-hat'ish for me, sorry.
This is the number 1 strategy in dealing with dissenting voices; Just label them as conspiracy nut jobs. Not only is this offensive, you are also hiding behind that so you don’t have to answer any of my questions.
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What particle sizes and droplets surgical medical masks block is established science, N95 masks are used since 1972. It's wasted time to discuss that.
We are not talking about N95 masks here. And even if we were, N95 masks might be dangerous when exercising (dancing).*
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There have been lots of studies on this in the last 50 years. It's established that both N95 and surgical masks filter virus droplets and provide benefit:
[Link to article removed due to Glöp restriction]
There are also first studies emerging on effectiveness on effectiveness against the novel corona virus: [Link to article removed due to Glöp restriction]
The study you cite does not counter any of that.
Yes it can be helpful in specific situations and only if used correctly (which is a hard thing to do, probably impossible when people are dancing and under the influence). Again, my point is that this is only relevant if there is a high rate of asymptomatic spread, which does not seem to be the case. That is what the study I cite is about, it has nothing to do with the effectiveness of masks.
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Of course this says nothing about how well unregulated done-at-home cloth masks work, or non-certified paper masks, which is what is mostly worn today in the general public. As there is no standard, this can range anywhere between "works as well" or "person was breathing toxic substances contained in the cloth". It appears pretty impossible to study such a vast basket of unknowns.
This is only further evidence tho show how ridiculous the whole mask requirement is. It’s not about safety, it’s about compliance.
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I am not saying that governments don't tend to abuse a situation of crisis for power grabs, that's pretty much how most dictatorships begin. But as we know from history, and can see in present in quite a bunch of countries, this is done by creating a virtual enemy, creating hate, and building upon insecurities of people. Controlling people by forcing them to use face masks? Sorry, that's a Pinky and the Brain kind of plan.
We clearly have a virtual enemy, the virus. Yes it’s a real virus, but it’s nowhere near the ‘killer virus’ it was made out to be. Leaders around the world are using war like language and are saying this is the biggest threat since WW2. And since everybody could be a carrier, everybody is ‘the enemy’.
Creating hate? Right now we are separated from one another, mandated by law. And if we won’t comply we will get fined, and if we don’t pay the fine we will be put in prison. This policy is directly pitting people against one another. For example: If I walk up to you and cross the magical 1,5 meter line, not only am I violating the law, so are you.
Building upon insecurities? Death is probably the biggest insecurity for us all. For months now we have been bombarded with horrific stories and images, telling us we could all die and that if we don’t comply we are literally killing people.
The face masks are just the top of the iceberg and are far from innocent**. The mask is a symbol to this whole perverted power grab.
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Anyway: Should have any UC participant have an issue with the rule or special needs, they can contact the organizers to discuss this, there is a big fat bold button on the website for that :)
I don't have the desire to turn this thread into a general discussion of Covid-19 other than direct and addressable concerns of those who wish to participate in the event safely. So please don’t.
You claim that you don’t have visitors but participants, but at the same time it is you who is imposing rules on other people (one could argue this is a power grab in itself, no matter how well intentioned). You can’t have it both ways.
So my core question remains. Are you going to take responsibility if something goes wrong because of your rules, or not?
Sources:
* "Exercise with facemask; Are we handling a devil's sword?” – A physiological hypothesis" (ScienceDirect dot Com)
** "Effect of facemasks on empathy and relational continuity: a randomised controlled trial in primary care" (ncbi.nlm.nih dot Gov)
Gabbie: Please go away.
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Gabbie: Please go away.
Last time I checked this is a free and open forum and so far you have refused to take responsibility for your own rules.
Gabbie: last time I checked a face mask is just a piece of cloth of some kind, they don't kill you, please chill. You could also argue that the rule of wearing clothes on the street is a perverted power grab. If it helps to make people feel save and maybe to even contain the virus a bit better, without forcefully testing everybody or doing other truly invasive measures, so what. If you want to oppose it, fine. But please stop forcing your opinion on everybody else. Also this is a party thread and not a Corona thread. Last time I checked one could start a new thread on this free and open forum.
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Gabbie: last time I checked a face mask is just a piece of cloth of some kind, they don't kill you, please chill. You could also argue that the rule of wearing clothes on the street is a perverted power grab. If it helps to make people feel save and maybe to even contain the virus a bit better, without forcefully testing everybody or doing other truly invasive measures, so what. If you want to oppose it, fine. But please stop forcing your opinion on everybody else. Also this is a party thread and not a Corona thread. Last time I checked one could start a new thread on this free and open forum.
Masks are a truly invasive measure, there is plenty of psychological literature on the topic.
Besides that, I am asking the main organiser of this party wether he is willing to take responsibility for his own rules. If that is not related to this party I don't know what is.
I am not forcing my opinion on anybody.
I don´t see how the hygienic preventive measures could actually do severe damage. In the end everyone at UC is a grown up person with a functioning brain and not a toddler obeying without reflection what his nanny told him.
So far scamp did best, it´s up to the others to take care for the rest.
Thus, please give actual proven examples what could be dangerous *in the context of this party* so it could be taken care of or GTFO.
Note: I do not trust our rotten government and their handling of the situation is mostly questionable, but strongly opposing mask usage which are one of the least invasive measure while still providing at least some benefit is just pathetic.
So far scamp did best, it´s up to the others to take care for the rest.
Thus, please give actual proven examples what could be dangerous *in the context of this party* so it could be taken care of or GTFO.
Note: I do not trust our rotten government and their handling of the situation is mostly questionable, but strongly opposing mask usage which are one of the least invasive measure while still providing at least some benefit is just pathetic.
Gabbie: Idk, seems to me you didn't get the memo that masks are obligatory in Germany since quite some time already. The question you're asking is a bit odd imho, what kind of responsibility do you expect a party organizer to take? If people end up in an IC scamp should pay their medical bill? Or he should go around the party venue and kick out anyone who doesn't follow his rules? No offense meant but I really don't quite understand what kind of reply you're expecting to that question.
gabbie: Do you have any intent to visit UC? Have you ever visited ANY demoparty? Are you even a demoscener?
Anyway: Yes, we have an insurance police for the event, which would cover any neglect.
It will not cover en-slavery of mankind caused by mask-wearing rules.
Can you please leave us alone now? Start your own thread please.
Anyway: Yes, we have an insurance police for the event, which would cover any neglect.
It will not cover en-slavery of mankind caused by mask-wearing rules.
Can you please leave us alone now? Start your own thread please.
scamp: Gabbie is a wellknown scener, no need to doubt that
Gabbie: Please continue here. Thank you.
Topic shift:
We are looking for people who are interested in preparing a demo show. After all, we got a gigantic outdoor bigscreen, and it would be a shame not to show demos during the night time.
The demo show should be properly prepared in-beforehand at home. The hardware used for testing the demos should be taken to the location. Alternatively, for PC demos, you could use the compo PC on Thursday to check that your demo show works.
The demo show should be themed. This can either be based on aesthetics, platform or time.
Example ideas:
- "Evolution of PC 4k demos during the last 20 years"
- "Exploiting VGA"
- "VIC Milestones"
- "Best story demos"
If you are interested in doing such a demo show, please let us know.
We are looking for people who are interested in preparing a demo show. After all, we got a gigantic outdoor bigscreen, and it would be a shame not to show demos during the night time.
The demo show should be properly prepared in-beforehand at home. The hardware used for testing the demos should be taken to the location. Alternatively, for PC demos, you could use the compo PC on Thursday to check that your demo show works.
The demo show should be themed. This can either be based on aesthetics, platform or time.
Example ideas:
- "Evolution of PC 4k demos during the last 20 years"
- "Exploiting VGA"
- "VIC Milestones"
- "Best story demos"
If you are interested in doing such a demo show, please let us know.
@Havoc
That's why my first question was whether these are UC rules or German government rules, but I did not get an answer. Is this party allowed according to the current German rules? If it's not than who is responsible for the safety of the vistors?
That's why my first question was whether these are UC rules or German government rules, but I did not get an answer. Is this party allowed according to the current German rules? If it's not than who is responsible for the safety of the vistors?
Both UC rules and government rules apply. UC rules are more strict than government rules. Yes, party is legal. Can we finally put an end to this discussion, please?
Thanks for your reply. My argument is; If your rules are more strict than the government rules, than the responsibility lies with you. And just because your rules are more strict, that does not make them safer. In fact I would say it's a pretty dangerous game you are playing and I don't think you have truly thought it through.
In my opinion the only way you can ethically organise a party right now is by relying on the responsibility of the visitors and not by imposing rules from above.
That's all. I wish you a great party and I hope all goes well.
In my opinion the only way you can ethically organise a party right now is by relying on the responsibility of the visitors and not by imposing rules from above.
That's all. I wish you a great party and I hope all goes well.
Renegade End-of-World Outfit Compo!
If you need or would like to have a community mask at the event, and you can spice it up with additional idiotic accessories, I'll make you one and bring it along.
Standard cloth face mask cut without folding (ninja-style! Check Wikipedia), most uni-colours are available at my fabric dealer in appropriate cotton (high threadcount, washable at 60+ °C). You'll have to order until Saturday morning, though.
You can have a wired frame at the nose-cheek-brim (for people with glasses) or without. No applications, as they may impact your ability to breathe or the integrity of the fabric.
They are of course free of charge and you can take them home, but are not validated for their actual protective attributes (as is the nature of the community mask, just as a disclaimer).
Damn us if we don't manage to pull off "Oh look, here's that mask that weird aunt of mine made me for that one-and-only demoparty we had that summer a few years back!" in demoscene-ish family-standards.
If you need or would like to have a community mask at the event, and you can spice it up with additional idiotic accessories, I'll make you one and bring it along.
Standard cloth face mask cut without folding (ninja-style! Check Wikipedia), most uni-colours are available at my fabric dealer in appropriate cotton (high threadcount, washable at 60+ °C). You'll have to order until Saturday morning, though.
You can have a wired frame at the nose-cheek-brim (for people with glasses) or without. No applications, as they may impact your ability to breathe or the integrity of the fabric.
They are of course free of charge and you can take them home, but are not validated for their actual protective attributes (as is the nature of the community mask, just as a disclaimer).
Damn us if we don't manage to pull off "Oh look, here's that mask that weird aunt of mine made me for that one-and-only demoparty we had that summer a few years back!" in demoscene-ish family-standards.
Yay, demoshow!
Yo mopperz!
We have just released the PC Invitation Demo for Underground
Conference 10 - "Where Sofas End".
Get all the details, all the thrill, and all the flatus on the backgrounds on where this year's UC is coming from, and where we are potentially heading (downhill).
PC minimum requirements: AMD GCN Radeon HD 7850 / NVIDIA Kepler GTX 660 / Intel HD520.
Download and comment here:
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85997
Or, act like a lame llama and check the video version at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4XzrQ7zn3I
We have just released the PC Invitation Demo for Underground
Conference 10 - "Where Sofas End".
Get all the details, all the thrill, and all the flatus on the backgrounds on where this year's UC is coming from, and where we are potentially heading (downhill).
PC minimum requirements: AMD GCN Radeon HD 7850 / NVIDIA Kepler GTX 660 / Intel HD520.
Download and comment here:
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85997
Or, act like a lame llama and check the video version at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4XzrQ7zn3I