How not to deal with other people and their art
category: general [glöplog]
gasman: IRL parties != "ze internet". This is the crucial difference I'm trying to point out [and obviously failing to accomplish?].
jix: My eyes are impaired since ages [strong glasses]. People call "four eyes" on this impairment on a daily basis. Should I now start to throw a tamper tantrum every time someone calls me implicitly "blindworm" in a derogatory fashion?
Since I have no clue what your impairment is I can't make an assertion but only assume that mine is a much lighter burden to bear.
But the only tip or resolve I can recommend regarding people (not necessarily Sceners) shittalking on the internet is, to not let it get to you.
If you want to school people to not "cause harm by being mean" (IRL or Web) you might as well try to nail a fart to a wall. But that's just my opinion. Best of luck in your endeavour.
Of course it is, and I'm not complaining. I see this as an interesting debate, which is necessary in order to find a compromise down the line. And for my view, sanitizing one's language in order to god forbid not offend anyone nor any subject is the thing that kills not just fun but progression and problem solving in general.
You're clearly misrepresenting. If somebody is harassed, threatened etc. in real life with me standing near, I'm quite legally obligated to make that difference, and I would.
If it's some people shitposting on the internet, hell yea, I don't give a flying leap; unless these fuckers are inciting with the intend to cause harm. And this is the difference in my view: a tasteless shitty or insulting joke is not necessarily incitement to cause harm.
jix: My eyes are impaired since ages [strong glasses]. People call "four eyes" on this impairment on a daily basis. Should I now start to throw a tamper tantrum every time someone calls me implicitly "blindworm" in a derogatory fashion?
Since I have no clue what your impairment is I can't make an assertion but only assume that mine is a much lighter burden to bear.
But the only tip or resolve I can recommend regarding people (not necessarily Sceners) shittalking on the internet is, to not let it get to you.
If you want to school people to not "cause harm by being mean" (IRL or Web) you might as well try to nail a fart to a wall. But that's just my opinion. Best of luck in your endeavour.
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Well me complaining about it is as much free speech. I shouldn't complain because it kills the mood and takes away the fun? Well that stuff takes away all the fun for me.
Of course it is, and I'm not complaining. I see this as an interesting debate, which is necessary in order to find a compromise down the line. And for my view, sanitizing one's language in order to god forbid not offend anyone nor any subject is the thing that kills not just fun but progression and problem solving in general.
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Just saying "Das Leben ist kein Ponyhof" to the complaints of others, especially if you could make a difference, is a sign that you do not care.
You're clearly misrepresenting. If somebody is harassed, threatened etc. in real life with me standing near, I'm quite legally obligated to make that difference, and I would.
If it's some people shitposting on the internet, hell yea, I don't give a flying leap; unless these fuckers are inciting with the intend to cause harm. And this is the difference in my view: a tasteless shitty or insulting joke is not necessarily incitement to cause harm.
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jix: My eyes are impaired since ages [strong glasses]. People call "four eyes" on this impairment on a daily basis. Should I now start to throw a tamper tantrum every time someone calls me implicitly "blindworm" in a derogatory fashion?
If it hurts you, why wouldn't you? If you don't, they'll just keep doing it and you'll keep getting hurt.
If it doesn't hurt you, that's great, but don't assume everyone else feels the same.
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If somebody is harassed, threatened etc. in real life with me standing near, I'm quite legally obligated to make that difference, and I would.
Why are we making this stark distinction between real life and online? There's a person at the other end of the computer being hurt, it still happens just because you can't see them.
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IRL parties != "ze internet".
It's the same people and the same community.
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If you want to school people to not "cause harm by being mean" (IRL or Web) you might as well try to nail a fart to a wall. But that's just my opinion. Best of luck in your endeavour.
A community can set their own standards, and it feels so much better to be around people with the understanding that you don't try to cause harm to each other, including harm by words spoken or written, and if you accidentally did, you apologize, learn from it and don't do it again. You describe it as something impossible, for me it's reality outside of demoscene.
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If somebody is harassed, threatened etc. in real life with me standing near, I'm quite legally obligated to make that difference, and I would.
I don't see the difference when it's the same people I'm going to run into at parties, and who behave the same way IRL as they do here. (Not all, I don't recognize everyone who wrote in this thread). If it's ok for people to behave in a certain way online most will behave the same way IRL in my experience. It might be a bit harder to talk past each other IRL, but I don't think that's the issue here.
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When you say "just walk away" that means walking away from the demoscene entirely.
Noby, I'm not sure if that was addressed at my statement to "sign off and take a walk" if some idiot insults you or your condition on the internet.
I probably didn't make that clear enough in this hairsplitting environment.
When I write "sign off and take a walk" I literally mean shutting down the computer, leave the house/flat and do something else for at least some hours or the rest of the day -- just cool down and disregard the online shit. That didn't mean to "walk away" from some scene or society.
Holy moly, folks ...
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jix: My eyes are impaired since ages [strong glasses]. People call "four eyes" on this impairment on a daily basis. Should I now start to throw a tamper tantrum every time someone calls me implicitly "blindworm" in a derogatory fashion?
Yeah I guess that's because roughly 60% of the population needs vision aid. Hell, even in your age group 40% of people wear actual glasses. This is not a source of insecurity or something you're mocked for unless you're in elementary school so I'm not fucking surprised you're not affected. Your advice is exactly the kind of passive aggressive dismissal that is the issue. It's tantamount to telling a depressed person to just cheer up and try to sleep better. Really you're just trying to dodge (heh) your own shortcomings and responsibility and shoving the burden on the person affected.
This weird early-2000s notion of "oh these people aren't mean, it's just the internet" is patently absurd. If anything your behavior on here just shows what kind of a person you really are since there's less to inhibit you from being courteous as opposed to face to face, which is not very impressive. The fact that this happens "on the internet" is totally irrelevant. Internet is part of the real life too. The things people say here, in this thread, are real, coming from real people who are among us and at demoparties too.
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If this works for you it's fine, but that's not how everybody works. And that's the point, you have to accept that there are people who are hit by words more than you. That's all.if some idiot insults you or your condition on the internet.
jix: i'm slightly offended by your words. like sunspire, and i'm sure many other sceners, i'm avoiding posting long posts here to avoid fueling the fire, i believe the discussion has run it's course and will only fester from random comments. but you're calling us out as complacent haters of minorities, which i for one am not, i take offense to your accusation, and don't believe for a second that your claim reflects the majority of the demoscene. like many who posted on this thread i believe the scene should be as inclusive as possible, but it's made of self-organizing humans, which makes things really really complicated, we can only try to educate and discuss things when people are open to the topic, not force it down everyone's throat with a witch-hunt. it's a process which has been slowly improving and i hope it will keep evolving. and while i completely understand you might not want to be exposed if you don't feel welcomed, i doubt you can find other communities more welcoming that won't enforce a more strict closed community mentality. which i for one am against for the demoscene, closed communities != inclusive in my book. i'm sad to see people feeling excluded from the demoscene but i can't understand how walking away while fueling a flamewar will fix the current demoscene culture. i definitely agree that there should be more public discussion about these topics, but maybe not fueling a flamewar.
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It's the same people and the same community.
And yet, they often behave completely different in each section.
Hasn't there been the saying "scene != pouet && pouet != scene"?
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Why are we making this stark distinction between real life and online?
Because you have the ability to switch off one of both -- you're literally in control.
The other you can not, and it's this one which matters ultimately.
That's my resolution. I'm not claiming to have the all-fits-one-solution.
It's the way I fare best, hence I'm recommending it.
My experiences from online message board dramas (arguments, fights, whatever) over the past 15 years is that, in most cases, involved parties are so heavily focused on pushing their own agenda that they fail to see, understand or accept the other party's point of view and things will just heat up more and more until 'boom'. You won't calm an erupting volcano with a teapot full of cold water. The situation needs to cool down over time before you can objectively discuss problems and find a solution. And then people should be invited to join the discussion rather than being made guilty for staying out of it when it was all burning hot.
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If this works for you it's fine, but that's not how everybody works. And that's the point, you have to accept that there are people who are hit by words more than you.
Moge kun: We had this talk during long drives, buddy. And I know and respect your personal view on the subject. If such shit is happening to you and I happen to be around, be sure that I would try my best to comfort you ... including the advise to not letting it get to you. Especially if it's shit posted online.
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And yet, they often behave completely different in each section.
Hasn't there been the saying "scene != pouet && pouet != scene"?
being the person who coined that term, that wasn't the point. and i'm forced to agree with gargaj and noby and preacher that people should own what they say online the same way they do offline.
Noby: You're trying to split hairs, and character presumption isn't really helping your argument. Also you missed the last part on the impairment thing. I was clearly pointing out that it is a lesser one compared to other conditions. You obviously were not so keen to account for that, eh?
@psenough: I think you misunderstood me, I probably wasn't clear enough, I'm not saying you are complacent if you don't post here. I haven't spoken up for a long time myself. I tried to express that with what I wrote earlier:
But I've seen many people (no idea if a majority, but enough to make me feel unwelcome) making fun of causing drama because it is about such a non-issue, often claiming that it's just about a joke and that's just words etc... and therefore this is all just drama. Thereby actively stating that they don't think this is something that should be discussed. That's what I tried to call out, but I realize that I wasn't careful enough in expressing that. I'm sorry for implying that not joining this discussion is a problem. I have no problem with people who want to wait until things are calmer, even though I personally don't think that's effective.
One community I find more inclusive is also self-organized, I'd even say not too dissimilar in structure to the demo scene. And yeah it makes things complicated, and things aren't perfect, but the difference is that they stopped shutting down discussions about this (and I'm not saying you did, but I think there is a threshold which when reached makes sure someone will always shut down or derail such a discussion).
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If your reaction is to ignore it because you don't have the time or energy or didn't notice that's ok with me, but don't tell people that care and have the energy to speak up that they are unreasonable.
But I've seen many people (no idea if a majority, but enough to make me feel unwelcome) making fun of causing drama because it is about such a non-issue, often claiming that it's just about a joke and that's just words etc... and therefore this is all just drama. Thereby actively stating that they don't think this is something that should be discussed. That's what I tried to call out, but I realize that I wasn't careful enough in expressing that. I'm sorry for implying that not joining this discussion is a problem. I have no problem with people who want to wait until things are calmer, even though I personally don't think that's effective.
One community I find more inclusive is also self-organized, I'd even say not too dissimilar in structure to the demo scene. And yeah it makes things complicated, and things aren't perfect, but the difference is that they stopped shutting down discussions about this (and I'm not saying you did, but I think there is a threshold which when reached makes sure someone will always shut down or derail such a discussion).
Why is there such fervor to tell people to defend themselves, instead of trying to curb down on the attacks to defend against?
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people should own what they say online the same way they do offline.
ps: I would sign that, too. Yet, reality tells me otherwise. And I'm not so sure if it's a Quixotic quest to school or nudge the entirety of people into this. Hell, it's probably a futile task regarding the Scene alone. With people being different and all, you know, temper and personality.
jix, FWIW i see far less people here complaining about "oh no, drama again" than in other drama/argument/heated threads in the past, but we may have a different perception on it. it's just my impression.
sure there is some mockery in the oneliner, apparently that's the bystander's gossip rink in our case :)
sure there is some mockery in the oneliner, apparently that's the bystander's gossip rink in our case :)
Gargaj: i think you mistake fervor with blind counseling for the least trouble possible. it's a knee jerk response, not necessarily a symptom of ill intent.
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Because you have the ability to switch off one of both -- you're literally in control.
The other you can not, and it's this one which matters ultimately.
We're not talking about noname randos - a person who says something hurtful on Pouet may be at the same party the next time you go to one. (In case of people who have a known name, you can pretty much take that for granted.) That changes the dynamic considerably because it may discourage you from going - even if you're not the one being hurt, the reaction of the community may paint a picture where you get the impression that if it's your turn being hurt noone's gonna care or come to your aid when you raise a voice.
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Gargaj: i think you mistake fervor with blind counseling for the least trouble possible. it's a knee jerk response, not necessarily a symptom of ill intent.
Putting aside that intent really doesn't matter when there's damage done, what does this tell about us as a scene? Just above we've been shown as a clear intent that a person who was a productive contributing member of the community got hurt at an event (ostensibly what's our above-touted "as opposed to the Internet, IRL is wonderful" space) and by their own admission internalized it because of what the environment was, instead of speaking out, and in the long run it just made everything worse - and that's OUR fault as a scene.
We're not a horrible inhumane community, I think (hope) even Jix would admit to that much, but time and time again we've proven that we're pretty terrible at course correcting and admitting fault, and as long as we can't start working that, we're gonna see people walking away.
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We're not a horrible inhumane community, I think (hope) even Jix would admit to that much
Absolutely, I'm also certain a large majority would like things to be better.
What I'm not so sure about is that a majority is willing to discuss what steps are needed to get there and also willing to work on that. The discussion in this thread give me some hope that I'm mistaken here and read too much in the initial reaction such issues often get. But I personally think working on that (initial reactions) is an important step if people want to encourage discussion about how to improve here. Not labeling things as drama or otherwise implying a discussion is unreasonable also makes it easier to have calmer, more productive discussions in my experience.
I wasn't going to touch this thread with a ten foot pole, and I still won't address the events that started the whole thing, as I feel that they have been resolved to the infinitesimal point they can be resolved over a couple of days on an Internet forum. However, as the thread has now gravitated towards the greater theme of speaking out and listening, I feel there are signals here I want to try to amplify.
Obviously, the majority of users here don't shout people down when they address their concerns. That's a given. However, if the ratio of "ugh, DRAMA" to respectful discussion is bad enough, it really doesn't matter how many people remain passively and silently accepting. If you feel you're being disproportionately ridiculed rather than supported, that shit wears you out, and then, sitting down, shutting up and listening "just jokes" wears you out also. It's bloody unfortunate that someone would take that as a cue to take their potential contributions and walk away, but can you blame them? Time and patience for bullshit are finite resources.
Free speech? To me, the essence of free speech is not a free for all, irresponsible shoutfest without a care in the world. The essence of free speech is an exchange of ideas via discussion and art, with the implicit understanding that sometimes, even someone with the best intentions says something inconsiderate - and then, instead of reaching for the comfortable crutch of dismissing everything as "lol drama", listening to people when they say they're not comfortable with something, and considering whether they have a fair point.
I remember when the first Kevin demo came out, and a discussion about some people feeling that the depiction of the main character is insulting towards people with disabilities. Now, honestly, I don't understand that point of view completely, but it's not my place to judge whether someone else feels about art in a legitimate way, and actually that's irrelevant here. What is relevant is that Jco could have dismissed the whole argument, but he chose not to - he chose to listen and engage in the argument in a considerate manner, and I respect the hell out of Jco for that.
I wish less people were incapable of that.
Obviously, the majority of users here don't shout people down when they address their concerns. That's a given. However, if the ratio of "ugh, DRAMA" to respectful discussion is bad enough, it really doesn't matter how many people remain passively and silently accepting. If you feel you're being disproportionately ridiculed rather than supported, that shit wears you out, and then, sitting down, shutting up and listening "just jokes" wears you out also. It's bloody unfortunate that someone would take that as a cue to take their potential contributions and walk away, but can you blame them? Time and patience for bullshit are finite resources.
Free speech? To me, the essence of free speech is not a free for all, irresponsible shoutfest without a care in the world. The essence of free speech is an exchange of ideas via discussion and art, with the implicit understanding that sometimes, even someone with the best intentions says something inconsiderate - and then, instead of reaching for the comfortable crutch of dismissing everything as "lol drama", listening to people when they say they're not comfortable with something, and considering whether they have a fair point.
I remember when the first Kevin demo came out, and a discussion about some people feeling that the depiction of the main character is insulting towards people with disabilities. Now, honestly, I don't understand that point of view completely, but it's not my place to judge whether someone else feels about art in a legitimate way, and actually that's irrelevant here. What is relevant is that Jco could have dismissed the whole argument, but he chose not to - he chose to listen and engage in the argument in a considerate manner, and I respect the hell out of Jco for that.
I wish less people were incapable of that.
jobe: Thank you, very well put.
d0dge: No, I just meant to underling how silly it's even to bring that up. It's a non-solution, just like closing the computer for the day; it doesn't solve the matter but just leaves it to fester. I'm not judging your character, I'm judging what you say. (Also the earlier response wasn't specifically to you anyway).
d0dge: No, I just meant to underling how silly it's even to bring that up. It's a non-solution, just like closing the computer for the day; it doesn't solve the matter but just leaves it to fester. I'm not judging your character, I'm judging what you say. (Also the earlier response wasn't specifically to you anyway).
Yeah, Jobe nails it imo. <3
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We're not talking about noname randos - a person who says something hurtful on Pouet may be at the same party the next time you go to one. (In case of people who have a known name, you can pretty much take that for granted.) That changes the dynamic considerably because it may discourage you from going - even if you're not the one being hurt, the reaction of the community may paint a picture where you get the impression that if it's your turn being hurt noone's gonna care or come to your aid when you raise a voice.
Gargaj:
Those are too many Ifs and Maybes for me. My personal experience of early 2000s Pouet has taught me that some who were quite the foulmouths on this board turned out rather relaxed when having a drink side by side at the party or generally not really throwing a riot. Some exceptions of course but that's life.
honestly i don't really see the "ugh, DRAMA" labelling that you mention when these issues are brought to discussion. although if it pops up as negative demo comments or flamewar igniters i guess most people will consider it as just another drama happening. but maybe i have a filtered view from my personality, i don't know. my recollection is that when these issues pop up there are discussions about it and eventually things get slightly better by making some party organizing groups more aware, and changing the culture little by little. could there be more? hell yes. should we have a new one every other week? people would probably not take them as seriously. but i remember plenty of threads where we discussed introverted personalities, sexism, racism, unacceptable drunken behavior, etc, and things seem to be a lot better in that regard in the demoscene in 2019 imho.
i think the "afraid of coming across as whining" thing is a real issue though and it takes some proper timing to make yourself heard about issues that bother you without getting dismissed under party mob mentality. but i still think it should be voiced and discussed and hopefuly people will bear it in mind on future events.
i think the "afraid of coming across as whining" thing is a real issue though and it takes some proper timing to make yourself heard about issues that bother you without getting dismissed under party mob mentality. but i still think it should be voiced and discussed and hopefuly people will bear it in mind on future events.