pouët.net

Kb: if you want to put it out of context....
So what your view on commercial engines vs non commercial engines in the demoscene and compos at parties?

magic: tuurlijk joh, ga er vooral over door, zet jezelf gerust nog wat harder voor lul

havoc: dit gaat niet om mij blijf alsjeblieft on topic aub

I think this discussion turned quite silly rather fast. Somehow there seems to be one side that is "defending" the creative freedom of using an engine when doing a demo.
The thing is, at least to me, the other side doesn't exist, there is no one who argues for a "ban" of using engine in the demoscene.
What *does* exist though, is people who are impressed by people writing their own engines. If I recall correctly, Navis more or less codes everything in ASD demos from scratch. That is impressive to me, and yes, I am a bit more impressed than I would have been if he instead used UE or Unity or Notch or whatever.
I really don't see the controversy in this.
To make an analogy to music - say that you listen to a great new song, and want to know if they actually have a drummer playing, or it's done purely with a drum machine.
This is not saying that "all music using drum machines are bad" or "ban music with drum machines", it's simply stating that you appreciate the talent it takes to play those drums.
As I appreciate the talent it takes to write a 3D engine from scratch.

magic, je bent klaarblijkelijk te dom om te begrijpen wat je zelf schrijft... heel sneu is dat

I played around in tooll.io a bit in the last few weeks and i even developed respect for those who manage to do non trivial stuff with it in finite time.

i remember at mekka'96 some well respected C64 scener that you all know coming to me and ranting about how it was lame to use "sourcecodes" in cross-assemblers. yeah what kind of lamers would do this shit? STOP IT!

Although I agree with this and is a funny albeit reductio absurdum story: releasing tracks at demoparties using 100% Vengeance loops for strings, pads, leads, percussion and drums does feel a bit like cheating. Even if you properly credit them, I guess most would assume you'd just use one or two samples and not complete loops. YMMD, but at this point it becomes merely an execise in mixing, mastering and songwriting. Tough disciplinesin their own right though.

numtek, isn't there a social stigma going along with using loops exclusively lile that? ;) esp. with popular loop collections, you'll probably get a portion of shame from other artists if you dare release it.

Guys, why are we so divided about this? There has to be some sort of in between solution.
All this argument, all this division, seems like... unreal to me.
Is there any chance for unity?

Notch ance of that

numtek: I've been using samples from Vengeance kits for over a decade — everyone has. I guess we're all cheaters.

Maybe coders should also do this more often, remixing code like it would be samples. Do you think that would be socially acceptable?

...or technically possible?

Isn't that what someone complained about re: ripping stuff found on shadertoy a couple of hundred pages back?

You mean like all coders re-use their old effects all the time? Like that has been happening since the 80s?

lol

I think most people aren't going to hold music to the same standards as graphics anyway (cf streamed music in real-time compos).

gloom, who hasn't, they're decent ;) I'd be surprised if you start clicking tracks together made entirely of commercial construction kit loops though.

This. I have used samples by them as well. Kicks, atmospheric risers and such.

Yes I think so. Not just in the scene, but outside as well.

It is maybe a bit more complicated to get code-samples into a "remixable" format, esp. if they originate from binary, than it is with music-samples. But it is definitely possible. Also the OP regarding "use of UE et cetera" relates to this.

So I guess my question is something like: why does it appear to be "okay" for musicians to heavily rely on sampling (i.e. using something made by someone else), but not for coders? And if so, why is that in light of the demoscene's origin in the cracking scene?

Like say, Crinkler or GNU rocket? ;)

Almost, and a good point as well. But Crinkler and Rocket are more like the sampling hardware in that sense. I was more thinking about actual effect code, like in the sense of the "amen break".

Are you talking about your own feelings personally or just speculating on "people"? Myself, I am not at all offended if someone is able to create a program that create more impressive effects than my program, regardless of what demomaker they used for it. Is there any actual prod-making person who is offended?