pouët.net

The original topic got locked from a (now banned) user posting spam, but won't be unlocked, so I'm following admin advice to post a new thread - I think we were making some progress with some incoming thoughts!

I don't know the answer. Do you think it's an interesting question? Then consider the following (in my mind necessary) rules. They were not easy to devise.

1. It doesn't introduce anything or serve a purpose, such as a tech demo for a computer or a piece of software - the reason you run the demo is to enjoy what's executed. (Yes, I know this excludes Boing, I'm sticking to it!) I will define enjoyment as having something of what we call an effect: beyond implementing a non-trivial hardware feature (such as logo+scroll or writer). Also this goes for game previews (which may contain effects) because...

2. It must be linked to a scene that is not a game scene, cracker scene, PD scene, mailing list, company, etc., but a demoscene. The link is mostly an absence of reference to the previous, and can be as simple as showing what you made with no words. If words are used, there must be a link in those words to suggest that there is a demoscene, as in...

3. It must have at least one known credit and two members mentioned (of which the credit can be one member), and those members must be (known later as) handles, not realnames, and both handles must both be associated with groups that went on to make at least 1 more demo for the same group using the same handles. Oof. :) (Because of the nature of the challenge, one exception to the "1 more prod rule" (only) is allowed: if they greet groups or handles of groups that later went on to make at least 1 more demo.)

Why these rules? (Many replies expressed confusion along the lines of, why not just the first Apple II crack intro, or something someone ran on his oscilloscope in the 1950s for his fellow computer engineer?)

Because I'm interested in finding the origins of the demoscene proper, and on which platform it may have emerged. To me that means a release made by a scener solely to impress another scener. Thinking about this led me to these strict rules above.

:: In a nutshell ::

1. Self-contained purpose - to show what you worked on and what you can produce. (Just as today.)
2. But it must be released for the demoscene, small as it may have been then. (Not demoing a product, not an ad for a PD company, etc.)
3. Authors must have chosen handles to be known by (credits) within that demoscene, and part of a group (=2 or more members).

These rules should be the complete minimum requirement to lead from the normal demos released today back in time to the very first such. I think clues such as "I know the first group that released a demo for my favorite platform" are hot leads - it will almost certainly carry the rest of the rules with it.

We may be surprised what we may find! 1977? 1988? Somewhere in between, on a platform in a country with a relatively small demoscene today? :)

What came first, the demoscene or a demo?

*must.find.hairsplit.threshold.of.organically.developing.subculture*
muh zealotry commands it

so you are basically about when exactly the term "demoscene" was coined? because im sure point 1. and 3. have been happening a long time before that just not in a "demoscene" context.

What we are looking for can be set as an easy question:
"What was the first prod the scene came up with that only got released to show off the groups abilities of using the hardware´s capabilities to its best...instead of accompanying a game as a crack or being made by someone for capitalist reasons or by someone not originating in the (cracking-)scene."

The Question may be easy, but completely unanswerable!

Photon, aswell as the original thread, tried to limit proposals already, but no matter what rules we invent to get an answer, it won´t be the truth!

The Demoscene, aswell as the CrackingScene before, is just an effort of many people/groups involved, that used their computers in other ways than officing/gaming!

So my answer to this would be: "It doesn´t matter, we evolved from cracktros to intros to demos at some point and it was an evolution of the whole scene together!"
(And i did not say Demoscene is superior to Crackingscene, that´s not how Evolution works, the Demoscene is just a mutation! ;) )

PS: I only wonder when the next "oldskool"-troll, having joined the scene only pretty late (1990+) pops up and destroys this thread aswell! (oops, i just did! joined scene officially in 1991, lurked around as a kid since 1987 though, loved cracktros since 1984!)

Hehe. :D If it doesn't interest you who made the first demo, then that's fine. See second why answer below as follow-up if you want.

This is a topic that interests me for sure, and some respondents in the old thread expressed interest. If you want to know why I personally became interested in this, it's probably from my involvement with the preservation sites, and I think I saw the same spark of interest there from those who have cataloged demos quite far back on the famous sites.

I'm keenly aware of the possible fact that there could live on this site a very old thread on the same topic with a lot of juicy info :)


That's the thing. The Demoscene as we know it today was formed by some group saying "hey, let's do this" and making the first demo as we know them today. I'm curious to find out who, aren't you? :)

Wouldn't they have started it all? Couldn't they lay rightful claim to the title, Godfathers of the Demoscene? Wouldn't it be awesome to find them? Well I think so :)

i recall a few of these discussions and "quests" for the first demoscene production.

i believe the venlo meetings were the consensus to being the first events that started being considered more of a demoparty rather than a copyparty?

some people claim this was the first demo ever released at a demoparty: TechTech by Sodan & Magician 42

but if you check dates of some other prods (like older releases from same groups), there are older releases with scrolltexts already calling them demos instead of crack intros.

looking forward to people finding older stuff though :)

there are some "demo" videos of random computer capabilities from the 70s also around, that could easily be considered demoscene, except that there was no demoparty culture surrounding those "releases".

the concept of "release" came only with the cracking scene and the trading of software.

It's also good to keep in mind that, unlike now, releasing demos wasn't demoparty/compo-focused back in the early days. So while TechTech might be the first partyrelease ever, it's most definitely not the first demorelease ever.

Would have been cool to have Venlo as the start of the demoscene.

I'd think it's either going to be a music rip from one of the crack teams ('84-'85) or something around the computer clubs/compunet era from '85-'86. This doesn't take into account stuff from the apple 2/atari though which could be earlier.

4mat: but was there a self-aware "demoscene" at that time (see photons point 2)?

First there were Cracktros and then demos followed.

The Judges should qualify so should be at least 1986... https://csdb.dk/group/?id=450

It would be interesting to know when the term of demoscene was ever mentioned, maybe in some old scrolltext, if it was a slow growing feeling between some communicating sceners that we start forming a community, or it was a sudden realization and someone decided to give this name.

wysiwtf: yeah, as an example Compunet had a lot of The Judges/1001 etc. demos uploaded to it at the time they were released. (it's where I saw them first)

If memory serves me, it was just "the scene" (which included cracking) back in the glory days of scrolltext. I think "demoscene" is a more recent term.

After substracting bible-fantasy literature stuff and some ready to shot clownery about pyramids or wooden horses, I'm sure it was the same thingy like it was with this different apes on different islands-analogy. ;) Three islands with a monkey pupulations - and without knowing each other, the same done practice suddenly on five islands the same time. Imagine the happyness when the water was downwelling or the weather was so clear, they was able to see the other islands bonfire while sitting arround a bonfire. :D Imho just a self runner that had to be run - a logical implication. Ok, now someone will post this picture taken from this one first ape... After substracting bible-fanta....
I was on island four or five I think... harhar *duck*

Agree. Besides, arranging demoparties requires at least a budding demoscene already in place to have enough ppl. The first demo must have been "spread", I think. Something that made someone go wow and realize this could be a thing.

I think we're talking about the time just before the first demoparty - not the almost a whole decade of CompuNet etc because the "thing" (i.e. something worth spreading for itself, hence 1.) wasn't born yet.

That's an assumption from too little known info on my part and could be wrong - there might have been a separate USA-BBS demoscene earlier operating like the European one (I'm including the British isles etc etc ofc). It might and might not have led to the European one we were part of. If it was, then it all began in America. :)


There may very well have been that one crack intro that sparked an idea for a "demo reply" instead of making something for the next crack release, so to speak. If that's how it happened, it would be a very interesting find! But the first demoscene demo must have been spread on its own (again the reason for rule 1.)

This sort of means that it would have had to have something special.


Yep, and I can take the Samantha fox slideshow as an example of what the rules are for (to lead us back from this demoscene to the demo that sparked it). It must have been spread a lot for the viewing enjoyment, and it certainly had something special. But was it the raster background on the first screen? ;)

As we go back in time, dates become uncertain. One possible method could be to look at the years that have no (zero) releases that fulfill the rules. Obviously this is proving a negative i.e. impossible, but barring early exceptions that we may find later, this could give some rough landmark year where demos as we know them started being spread. Something to work from to find the one.

Interesting.

I have also been told by long-term sceners that originally people used to say "the scene", and that the term "demoscene" is a more recent invention.

We might do a hunt for the first mention of the term "demoscene" in a diskmag or another demoscene production. I am curious. When Hugi got its demoscene focus in 1998, the term "demoscene" was already established. I guess Imphobia used the term "demoscene" already, I would have to check and look to verify this.

I found one mention of the "demoscene" in issue 11 of Maggy from 1991. "Scene" (or modescene) were mentioned 94 times, so the term doesn't seem quite established yet.

My life goals:
* Trying to find the end of the rainbow.
* Find the holy grail.
* Proof the moon is made of cheese.
* Find the first demoscene production.
* Write a good demo for Sharp MZ-800.

Isn't your task kind of impossible since even if some of you agreed on what is the first prod, even then most people would disagree anyways?

I read that the first scene meetings were called "copyparties". :) so when was the first official demoparty called "demoparty" if I may ask?