Should demoscene be explicit or P.C.?
category: offtopic [glöplog]
This week I had a nice booze-talk with a fellow demoscener, and we had a thought-provoking discussion about the status quo of PCness in the demoscene. The Kevin demo and the comments it incited here was a good signal of where it is all going, how we are.
My pal here was convinced that demoscene has to follow the path of political correctness as it is a mature-enough form of art and it needs to get with the sign of the times. While I don't diss the idea of political correctness per se, I am sortof a "demoscene traditionalist" in a sense that demoscene is inherently an explicit form of art, which is (was?) profoundly underground, stemming in piracy and 'digitally graffitiing' softwares, therefore it should not play safe.
I am by no means advocating being mindlessly profane, it should be done smart, but to give a personal example: it happened few years back that a song of ours was disqualified from a music compo for having bad words in the lyrics. Probably because kids of fellow sceners were present in the audience (i'm all in for the rule btw. in general - kids under a certain age should not be exposed to profanity), but remembering pre-2000 parties, it wasn't rare to see overly explicit material (either verbally or visually) in many of the entries, and it just felt alright - no restraints, fly free, anything goes. Be a child at heart.
Thoughts?
My pal here was convinced that demoscene has to follow the path of political correctness as it is a mature-enough form of art and it needs to get with the sign of the times. While I don't diss the idea of political correctness per se, I am sortof a "demoscene traditionalist" in a sense that demoscene is inherently an explicit form of art, which is (was?) profoundly underground, stemming in piracy and 'digitally graffitiing' softwares, therefore it should not play safe.
I am by no means advocating being mindlessly profane, it should be done smart, but to give a personal example: it happened few years back that a song of ours was disqualified from a music compo for having bad words in the lyrics. Probably because kids of fellow sceners were present in the audience (i'm all in for the rule btw. in general - kids under a certain age should not be exposed to profanity), but remembering pre-2000 parties, it wasn't rare to see overly explicit material (either verbally or visually) in many of the entries, and it just felt alright - no restraints, fly free, anything goes. Be a child at heart.
Thoughts?
What's the big deal?
Just do whatever you want providing you respect the rules of the party if you are going to released it in one.
Anyway, you can always release your fucking explicit demo in the internet. Right?
OK... If you really need it... do a "P.C./censored" party version of your demo and, after the party, release the good one. ;)
Just do whatever you want providing you respect the rules of the party if you are going to released it in one.
Anyway, you can always release your fucking explicit demo in the internet. Right?
OK... If you really need it... do a "P.C./censored" party version of your demo and, after the party, release the good one. ;)
Since everybody and their mom is an expert on Islam these days, feel free to make a "critical" demo about it but I reserve the right to call you an asshole if I find it justified.
[insert joke about Personal Computers here]
I didn't know we only had two options.
I didn't know we only had two options.
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I didn't know we only had two options.
didn't want to talk in extremes, pointed at the 2 ends but the spectrum is obviously wide (cue a Speccy joke too)
the lack of demos with naked men is disturbing
before we discuss further, don't you think this discussion should be subdivided?
not necessary imo
political correctness has nothing to do with decency or maturity like democracy has nothing to do with freedom.
anyone who is for pc either is conflicted or statist/totalitarian in their mindset.
neither is a sign of maturity.
art has been pc only in authoritarian regimes such as soviet union.
if killing/imprisoning a coder for non pc demo is what you want then go for it.
just don't call it mature.
anyone who is for pc either is conflicted or statist/totalitarian in their mindset.
neither is a sign of maturity.
art has been pc only in authoritarian regimes such as soviet union.
if killing/imprisoning a coder for non pc demo is what you want then go for it.
just don't call it mature.
Personally on a musical front, I VERY rarely use swearing, in fact I think the only tune I've ever done with swearing was Ghetto where a sample of "Motherf**ker" was used in the intro. In that instance it helped set the moody tone for the whole tune.
Generally I see no real need for profanity but if used in an artistic fashion I see no issue with it. Remember we are creating art and sometimes you need a hard edge to get your point across.
Generally I see no real need for profanity but if used in an artistic fashion I see no issue with it. Remember we are creating art and sometimes you need a hard edge to get your point across.
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if killing/imprisoning a coder for non pc demo is what you want then go for it.
just don't call it mature.
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Remember we are creating art and sometimes you need a hard edge to get your point across.
QFT
Sure - but don't pretend you are making a point when you're not.
yeah that's the other side of the horse -- the plain blatant shitflinging :)
demoscene without pc: state of the art
demoscene with pc: state the fart
demoscene with pc: state the fart
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What's the big deal?
Just do whatever you want providing you respect the rules of the party if you are going to released it in one.
This, and that's all there's too it.
The party organizers will decide what flies at their party, because they are the ones responsible for your audience. If they don't want stuff that's either vulgar or non-politically correct (whatever that means) presented to their audience, then you either don't release there or get disqualified.
Whatever you publish yourself on the Internet is between you and your ISP.
The demoscene doesn't have to be anything, people are free to express themselves as with any other medium. Which in turn means that people again are free to express whatever they think about whatever you make. If you make something controversial, there will be discussions afterwards, and that's all good and the way it should be.
So yeah..
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What's the big deal?
PC is a fun term anyway, mostly because it doesn't actually exist.
Most people ranting on about "political correctness" and how they're being censored and suppressed and shit couldn't point a finger at anyone actually doing so if their lives depended on it. Of course there's a handful of radical leftists/feminists/vegans/etc around but if we ignore the far ends of the bell curve it's basically just people using that loaded term to defend that they're behaving like shit towards other people.
So next time you (as in hypothetical you) want to rant about political correctness, just replace it with "treating other people like people" and listen to how dumb you sound.
Sadly the notion that other people indeed have a right to their lives too is historically a pretty recent thing and goes against generations of mindless "We good, others bad" thinking. Or the whole thing gets mixed up with whatever conspiracy theory you currently get off on (see above).
In a demoscene sense, I think the occasional swear word is fine (I know there are parents who bring their kids to a demoparty and probably want to shield them from the real world for just a little longer, but hey. Like that's gonna work.). It gets more interesting when you for example compare the "controversial" Girls in the Demoscene to some "harmless" old fun demo like Frauen Pausenlos.
Strictly seen, the former, with all the breasts and yucky stuff is way more "PC" than the latter. Girls... was made by all persons involved. Voluntarily and deliberately, and with full knowledge about how the reception might turn out (yes, I spoke to everyone involved, and btw, "ohai, so that's you. I didn't know your face yet, just your body" is a great pickup line. Didn't work. At all. Still great.). Frauen... on the other hand is basically some juvenile coder copying more or less explicit imagery from people he didn't ask because it makes him tingly down there and that feels nice. Which, basically, is exactly what objectification means. The point here is agency. Be explicit or deprecate yourself all you want, just don't denigrate anyone else (or whole groups of people).
Most people ranting on about "political correctness" and how they're being censored and suppressed and shit couldn't point a finger at anyone actually doing so if their lives depended on it. Of course there's a handful of radical leftists/feminists/vegans/etc around but if we ignore the far ends of the bell curve it's basically just people using that loaded term to defend that they're behaving like shit towards other people.
So next time you (as in hypothetical you) want to rant about political correctness, just replace it with "treating other people like people" and listen to how dumb you sound.
Sadly the notion that other people indeed have a right to their lives too is historically a pretty recent thing and goes against generations of mindless "We good, others bad" thinking. Or the whole thing gets mixed up with whatever conspiracy theory you currently get off on (see above).
In a demoscene sense, I think the occasional swear word is fine (I know there are parents who bring their kids to a demoparty and probably want to shield them from the real world for just a little longer, but hey. Like that's gonna work.). It gets more interesting when you for example compare the "controversial" Girls in the Demoscene to some "harmless" old fun demo like Frauen Pausenlos.
Strictly seen, the former, with all the breasts and yucky stuff is way more "PC" than the latter. Girls... was made by all persons involved. Voluntarily and deliberately, and with full knowledge about how the reception might turn out (yes, I spoke to everyone involved, and btw, "ohai, so that's you. I didn't know your face yet, just your body" is a great pickup line. Didn't work. At all. Still great.). Frauen... on the other hand is basically some juvenile coder copying more or less explicit imagery from people he didn't ask because it makes him tingly down there and that feels nice. Which, basically, is exactly what objectification means. The point here is agency. Be explicit or deprecate yourself all you want, just don't denigrate anyone else (or whole groups of people).
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Most people ranting on about "political correctness" and how they're being censored and suppressed and shit couldn't point a finger at anyone actually doing so if their lives depended on it. Of course there's a handful of radical leftists/feminists/vegans/etc around but if we ignore the far ends of the bell curve it's basically just people using that loaded term to defend that they're behaving like shit towards other people.
THIS. RIGHT. HERE.
Longer version: you can make whatever you want, not even the hypthetically magical SJW unicorn brigade of white-knighting snowflakes usually advocates outright banning anything. However, people do have the right to react to what you create however they like. If you make something that offends others and get called out on it, deal with it. And if your response to that is "boohoo SJW PC censorship misandry feminazi", consider the possibility that maybe you're just acting like an asshole.
Question time:
What are the benefits of an agency like politicial correctness?
Who is currently suffering from the lack of?
What are the benefits of an agency like politicial correctness?
Who is currently suffering from the lack of?
Agency indeed: having currently applied for a couple of jobs at American universities, I would have to write a "diversity" statement, basically recounting how I was a nice guy who promised not to be mean/sexist/racist/superpolitical etc. That sounds maybe like a nice thing to do, but the agency of the universities were at least as much to avoid lawsuits on my behalf, as it was about protecting their students.
At TRSAC we try to avoid censoring things for other purposes than it being crap, but we have disqualified a few things for "deliberate trolling" on the basis that while we will die for the right to free speech, we will not die for the chance to provide a platform for said speech.
Swearing is a cultural thing too - I have said "fuck", "fucking" etc more times when lecturing than I have said "ontology", and no one has complained so far. I suspect Danes to be more easygoing than for instance americans.
At TRSAC we try to avoid censoring things for other purposes than it being crap, but we have disqualified a few things for "deliberate trolling" on the basis that while we will die for the right to free speech, we will not die for the chance to provide a platform for said speech.
Swearing is a cultural thing too - I have said "fuck", "fucking" etc more times when lecturing than I have said "ontology", and no one has complained so far. I suspect Danes to be more easygoing than for instance americans.
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Quote:Most people ranting on about "political correctness" and how they're being censored and suppressed and shit couldn't point a finger at anyone actually doing so if their lives depended on it. Of course there's a handful of radical leftists/feminists/vegans/etc around but if we ignore the far ends of the bell curve it's basically just people using that loaded term to defend that they're behaving like shit towards other people.
THIS. RIGHT. HERE.
Yep, kb_ nailed it, we can close the thread and all go home.
It´s not as as simple as that.
By keeping within the boundaries of some P.C. codex you shift the responsibility of what you express to some external authority rather than reflecting on it (*).
If you abandon the idea of P.C. you emphasize that it´s basically you who is in charge for whatever you say (especially concerning context and intent, which can make a lot of difference - something which is generally neglected by the P.C. agenda).
(*)note how "anti-P.C.-protagonists" follow exactly the same pattern just with inverse sign ;)
By keeping within the boundaries of some P.C. codex you shift the responsibility of what you express to some external authority rather than reflecting on it (*).
If you abandon the idea of P.C. you emphasize that it´s basically you who is in charge for whatever you say (especially concerning context and intent, which can make a lot of difference - something which is generally neglected by the P.C. agenda).
(*)note how "anti-P.C.-protagonists" follow exactly the same pattern just with inverse sign ;)
T$ has a good point. Any norm that we could all hope to agree on would automatically become such an external authority to some people. So the best solution is to not agree on anything and just keep making demos.
And hey, "not agree on anything and just keep making demos" has basically been the modus operandi of the scene since its inception, so the problem is solved :-)
And hey, "not agree on anything and just keep making demos" has basically been the modus operandi of the scene since its inception, so the problem is solved :-)
It is this implicit assumption that someone decides for "P.C. crowd" what the agenda is and that there is a codex there somewhere that is particularly annoying.
There is nothing to reflect upon given the demos like "Girls in the Demoscene". Most of the non-P.C. examples that emerged recently are just juvenile, with zero evidence of reflection and zero content to reflect about. It is not clever. It is not challenging in any sense of the word. It is just downright ugly and tasteless, every single time.
The only really disturbing thing is to know that some sizeable part of the scene thinks of it as challenging, provocative and thought-inspiring.
There is nothing to reflect upon given the demos like "Girls in the Demoscene". Most of the non-P.C. examples that emerged recently are just juvenile, with zero evidence of reflection and zero content to reflect about. It is not clever. It is not challenging in any sense of the word. It is just downright ugly and tasteless, every single time.
The only really disturbing thing is to know that some sizeable part of the scene thinks of it as challenging, provocative and thought-inspiring.
This topic is too basic even for some good ol' fashion trolling ;P
Like... really?
From Revision rules:
Do you need anything more than that?
Like... really?
From Revision rules:
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Racism, child pornography and any kind of content that violates German law will be disqualified. Period.
(...)
We have the right not to show your production on the bigscreen if we think them to be total crap or detestable, even in competitions without preselection.
Do you need anything more than that?
