pouët.net

Yes and no; in principle I agree that just slinging mud isn't helping anything move forward, but in practice I think a thread talking about mudslinging not only legitimizes people who do it for teh lulz (because why else would they do it not to stir shit up), but also initiates a chilling effect on sane people who would provide useful-if-negative commentary on prods that could use some.

It's always unfortunate when someone gets shit on their work but Pouet is still eons better than YouTube, and part of being a community is making up your mind about who you believe and don't believe when it comes to rationale. We all wish the scene was solely made out of productive, constructive, nice people, but even in that scenario it's entirely possible that someone has a shit day and just doesn't feel like explaining why something they just watched didn't align well with how they felt at the time.

Why does this thread legitimize mudslinging?

And yes, you're right - pouet is more civilized. And yes exactly:

"that someone has a shit day and just doesn't feel like explaining why something they just watched didn't align well with how they felt at the time"

It happens all the time. And it's a dick move people can be called on :) That's all I'm trying to say, really.

I'm ambivalent on this. Once again, in principle, hopefully people commenting should have a level of impulse control for situations that are unrelated to their issues. But in practice, when someone is frustrated or upset, and they go off, the last thing they want (and often the worst thing can you do) is someone to take issue of _how_ they said things, because then you'll just be another straw on the camel's back. I understand the sentiment that making the "first" mean comment can be an offence itself, but I think de-escalating a situation like that is often a better idea.

people are stupid, drama ensues :D

It comes down to how you interpret comments and thumbs. If you expect an objective score from an imparcial jury, and you get a subjective representation of a personal taste, you're about to be disappointed. Take this for example:

I'd say this comment/thumb is not at all a representative evaluation of the entire production...

This problem will exist as long as the role of comments/thumbs is clearly defined (objective analysis vs. personal taste).

So at last one comment on passing by still could be useful here.
I was having a bad time doing some unconventional drugs (medication) and was very proud to release something out of this state of mind.. So one comment really hurted me back then "The musician should be shot." it was like negating, what I thought was a big achievement because not many people in the world do this drug.

What I have learned is, that encouraging people with the stuff they already did is much more powerful than criticizing people whith what you think they should have done. In some kind we are all different and have different opinions on what we think should be a demo, equalizing all to mid 90s demos really just doesn't help, but perhaps it's good to have a mainstream which dictates which colors/musics etc.. has to be used.. Have fun!

clearly you have to improve the music next time if you want a better evaluation

The comment/rating system loses its meaning entirely if only objectivity is the goal. Not that it's feasible anyway since you can't dictate how people feel what's objective and what's not. A single comment or vote obviously isn't representative, that's why it's a vote, i.e. a collective pool of opinions that together most likely comes to some sort of objective conclusion. I don't see the problem here at all. I think any personal standard is fine, including stakka's ("mr. kandler"), as to him music is clearly in a key role, and I can empathize with that though it's quite uncommon that the audio by itself would utterly ruin a production for me.

I think it's best to just look at what the audience in general thinks if you must, or preferable seek out the opinions of select individuals whose opinions you value the most.

Well, there's another message that maybe went a bit much between the lines of my writing. That is:

if people give you shitty asshole comments, don't take them too personally. He may just have had a rough day.

Exactly. All comments are personal opinions and reflect individual taste, therefore expecting objectivity is not a good idea. But I guess ronny was referring to the actual comments passing a certain threshold.

I get different votes on different communities (f.e. depending on if its national or inter-national, friendly or unfriendly) and also I ask myself why someone like or doesnt like my work - is it because it was just his subjective feeling and he has bad taste, he doesnt like the style of f.e music, he is jealous or it is really bad.
Just chill out and do ur work regardless how bad rating u get. Consider it and filter which can be useful advice and what can improve in ur workart.

Best advice to me was "That is just pouet.". Just a batch of crazy people. Don't mind the comments. :)

can all be said also about

/positive commentry

Negative comments are part of the scene.

One must live with them and they are sometimes though rarely admissible :
-someone wants to share their hate with you, not just withold it or be passive (trolls) ;
-someone thinks they can bring something to the table honestly (overblown ego) ;
-someone sees themselves as an authority in domain and tries to evaluate (vain) ;
-someone sees/alerts of ripper as code/gfx/music (maybe admissible).

Negative comments are only words, "stick and stones" are worse and unacceptable/ fullblown irrespectful as described in my other post today : "booing or whistling at parties ,thumbing down on name only, creating fake accounts, losing prods at parties, organizers orientating vocally audience votes live during compos etc..".

For some reason my experience has narrowed such culprits to a minority of ex-Austro-Hungarian empire demosceners, more often than not inactive and/or having faked some pseudo-legendary obscure achievements unheard of until some late rich circle-jerk researchers of same origins hands them a glorious past through tacit mutual cooptation.
Many other demosceners of the ex-Austro-Hungarian empire express much dismay at this in private but yet never voice their concerns publically, thus giving the false impression it is accepted.

So negative comments ? Yeah - be free. Insults and cheating ? Nooooo

Solution : only thumbdown BITS demos :)

Sure I said this before, they should remove thumbs down as an option so it's just a comment if people don't like something. Makes the comment look like more of a discourse and makes thumbing with no comment redundant.

what a silly discussion. grow some balls.

if no one thumbs down your work chances are more likely that it is just totally irrelevant rather than actually good in at least some aspect

I'd like to see more prods where the makers do not care at all about numbers and thumb counts. Thumbs and numbers just promote simple-minded behavior. Maybe you got such and such number, but do you like your prod? Did you have fun making it? Why do you make prods in the first place - to get big numbers shown on Pouet prod pages? Why do you need to have your opinions legitimized by masses? Why do you even acknowledge such a ridiculously one-dimensional good-bad scale? OK, maybe I have to break it out to you... the whole thumb count system is just a big collective practical joke, so don't take it too seriously. (yeah I shouldn't have revealed the 1337 secret)

I tend not to thumb down stuff, mostly because if something really does suck (imo) then it doesn't need another person telling them it sucks with nothing to add. If I have a real reason to thumb aside from just not liking it, then I'd do it and state as much. Usually. I'm sure there's some prod somewhere I didn't follow that. I occasionally try to be constructive, but others are usually better at it so my comments tend not to really have criticisms, just what I liked. (Besides, it's now forbidden to get around the empty comment check by just adding an empty bold or italic tag, so you can't thumb something up without leaving some kind of note.)

I think this all really boils down to just: have a thick skin, keep trying, and if you do respond don't lash out with invectives, extreme pejoratives, and the like. Keep it civil, even if you don't like the person. Unfortunately some people are pretty bad at that civil bit.


Pot, meet kettle.

I'm not entirely clear what you are complaining about since you never gave any examples of what are and are not acceptable comments to you.

Actually now that I checked some of your recent comments I think I can guess what this is really about. I noticed you responded with personal attacks to people who left negative comments on a group members prods. It comes across as a little hypocritical to chastise people for being negative when you respond in the same way.

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve here. You won't reason with people who leave the worst sort of unconstructive comments. When someone posts "This is shit and you suck" or something like that it is obvious their intention is to be insulting so they are not going to stop and think rationally before posting like that.

The other points I would like to make are mostly already covered in this thread but I will reiterate. What is acceptable criticism is subjective so you can't police that. It is also wrong to try and create a "safe place" where everyone has their feelings protected. If you are entering a competition or posting on pouet you are really asking to be judged.

The truely bad prods don't get any comments. In fact I would say that many times the success of a prod can be measured in the thumbs down. The most thumb upped prods often have the most thumb downs because they have made a big impact and attracted a lot of viewers and some people just have to hate whatever is popular. Of course exceptions exist.

Is it worse to have a prod that nobody watches and nobody even cares about enough to tell you it's bad or to have a prod that is controversial or borders on being good but just has some bad elements which drag it down? I see this a lot with thumb downs. Often the case is a prod is just on the cusp of being great but sometimes one element, something which may even be minor or nitpicking to point out ruins the whole thing. This can be frustrating as a viewer. There are some demo makers who are obviously talented but keep missing the mark and seem to go out of their way to ignore advice. After a time the constructive comments seem like a waste of effort if they are being ignored and they stop being polite and constructive and turn to frustrated disappointment which may come across as rudeness.

Finally I want to say that some of the best comments I have received on my own prods are criticism. It tells me exactly what I can do to improve next time. Unless you have a giant ego then this is always wanted. I much prefer to read what I did wrong than have no comment at all or shallow platitudes. I would hate for people to be afraid to be honest with their feedback because they are scared of being "negative".

Thats right - nothing can be added.
sometimes too many sweet comments on workart which I made and I know it is not so perfect as others claim makes me thinking about "ass-kissing". And believe me, it is better to be given criticism even the jealous one than having your ass kissed all the time like a new born baby

I have a newborn baby right here, and I can tell you right now: there is no kissing of ass. There is only wiping, and washing. And more wiping.

That sounds shitty ;)

No. See it all boils down to respect. You're lacking in respect if you don't point out the obvious truth. Covering each prod with a warm blanket isn't helping anyone. If you're going to remove the thumb downs what you'rer basicly saying is that pouet is the new facebook, where there is no space for negative emotions. It is just a false illusion of a safe space.

Exactly! I strongly dislike this whole trend of pretending there is no negativity that can be adressed. If you have something on your mind: speak it. If that means using a thumb down to make your message stronger there is nothing wrong with that. If objectivity was the only goal it would make no sense.