Going to parties with a social phobia
category: parties [glöplog]
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Quote:I still hate this meritocracy: In the end I really did have to "justify my existence" by making something: Make something, and people talk to you.
On the flipside though, isn't that a very reasonable motivation to step above the consumer crowd and make something? (I know it was for me.)
Maybe if someone expects you to actually be capable of doing something it is quite logical step. For me it took years to even consider that I might do something as no one really expected that from me. I'm also (or at least I was) bit afraid of telling people that I'm a coder, as the feedback I get is some times far from neutral (including being laughed at in disbelieve, or the more usual "really? you don't look like a coder." responses). Luckily after some time it kind of eased out a bit as more people actually got to know me and nowadays I don't really care that much. I'm still a beginner and maybe I won't do anything great ever but at least I did something (even if it is boring crappy beginner stuff). But there are times when I feel like being just a joke to the people around me.
However, most of the people I have met are nice and have been nice to me from the beginning. But the negative reactions are still fresh in my mind and it doesn't exactly help that I encounter those kind of situations also outside the demoscene in my every day life. But yeah that is kind of different topic but related to the reasons why I'm afraid of people.
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But there are times when I feel like being just a joke to the people around me.
Yep, this has kept me from even considering for a second that I might be able to participate for ~ten years. The "We're a secret club practicing black magic" elitist image didn't help exactly. The two assumptions "I have to do X to be welcomed" and "I can't do X" together, while both are probably wrong, formed some kind of vicious circle for me: Because only after talking to people you can realize that it's not black magic, but mostly smoke and mirrors plus some bits of freely-shared knowledge (plus lots of work) and that there's some X that you actually can do and enjoy. If I could tell my self from 15 years ago a single thing, something like this would probably be it.
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I keep asking myself If I spend those 20 hours a week just to impress people, which would be a bit sad.
Cupe, thanks a lot for this level of honesty.
I may repeat myself, but I was indeed very impressed by your seminar and productions.
On this occasion I really like to mention two well-known classical composers: Chopin and Liszt. As many sources tell, Chopin even that he was a good friend of Liszt despised the fact Liszt was all about showing off by creating almost impossible to play pieces for no apparent reason. However, as Chopin pieces wasn't all that much easier to play, he was always claiming that an impressive form was not his goal, but the melody and emotions that he wanted to convey simply demanded this level of difficulty/sophistication. We may argue if this was really the case, or it was maybe other way around (from Liszt fans perspective), but one thing is for sure: you need impressive and sophisticated form to make something that stands out, gets attention and maybe even stay there for few centuries (if not longer!).
As a conclusion: I don't think doing impressive stuff should be a goal in itself, but many times, it's a necessity. And making a demo that will "kick others butt" is a good excercise, so why not? Personally I have failed so far (I'm the king of 5th place), but I actually don't worry so much, it's just a funny game we play.
the older i get, the less i care about what others think. whatever you do should be about impressing yourself (or not in some cases if that entertains you). that sort of goes hand-in-hand with finding pleasure in what you do and how you fill in your life in general.
so if you are socially reclusive, if that makes you happy, why expect that a more social approach would be better? if you WANT more social interaction, work on it. baby steps, yadda-yadda. if you don't want that. stay in the back of the hall staring to your laptop for 4 days. both work :)
so if you are socially reclusive, if that makes you happy, why expect that a more social approach would be better? if you WANT more social interaction, work on it. baby steps, yadda-yadda. if you don't want that. stay in the back of the hall staring to your laptop for 4 days. both work :)
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Quote:I still hate this meritocracy: In the end I really did have to "justify my existence" by making something: Make something, and people talk to you.
On the flipside though, isn't that a very reasonable motivation to step above the consumer crowd and make something? (I know it was for me.)
(Re: OP) If you've made friends and they're going to a party, that's motivation to go. At least that's how it works for me. For me there isn't a stronger motivation to go to a party if I bring a release, but I know that if I go and don't bring a release, it won't be as fun. Worst is bringing an unfinished release, cos you'll be working on it and not have time for talk and fun!
But you shouldn't feel that you have to bring a release, after all the majority don't. Code/draw/compose for fun, if something turns out releasable, do it to see/hear it on the bigscreen.
There is a bit of pride there as Gargaj says, sort of delivering on the hopes of others who like your work and partaking. But for me it's more about the feeling of a missed opportunity if I don't than pride. I get really happy if ppl like my stuff tho :) but not pride or something like "at least I contributed, pah!" for me. Point is having fun and doing stuff between the parties too :)
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think some of you are just thinking too much into this.
I've yet to really see anyone being really judgemental in the 'scene. Well,perhaps some people rather openly look down on *nix prods, but let them. I'd like to say we've already proved them wrong, but then again, I don't get to choose.
To cupe: Yes, it may seem silly to say that you spent tens of hours to impress unknown people, but that's part of the sport. At least I'm not such a rockstar in everyday life, that an applause from a full hall of people doesn't make me feel like I've achieved something - even if they applaud someone else's prod ten times harder.
I've mentioned this hobby to other people in this magical real life, and have gotten responses ranging from "cool" to "oh, ok" to "this is really not art, is it?" or "how can you spend so much of your time on something stupid like that?". Last two from girlfriends, actually. Other sceners are your only frame of reference here. You can't really demand anyone else to share your enthusiasm. That'd be silly. It may also be silly to put in hours outside of work to something that is essentially work to impress "strangers", but is that wrong?
To rimina: At least I really enjoyed your Dreaming Surrealist last Assembly. It was honest-to-god good, no need for self-deprecation or "beginner stuff".
I've yet to really see anyone being really judgemental in the 'scene. Well,perhaps some people rather openly look down on *nix prods, but let them. I'd like to say we've already proved them wrong, but then again, I don't get to choose.
To cupe: Yes, it may seem silly to say that you spent tens of hours to impress unknown people, but that's part of the sport. At least I'm not such a rockstar in everyday life, that an applause from a full hall of people doesn't make me feel like I've achieved something - even if they applaud someone else's prod ten times harder.
I've mentioned this hobby to other people in this magical real life, and have gotten responses ranging from "cool" to "oh, ok" to "this is really not art, is it?" or "how can you spend so much of your time on something stupid like that?". Last two from girlfriends, actually. Other sceners are your only frame of reference here. You can't really demand anyone else to share your enthusiasm. That'd be silly. It may also be silly to put in hours outside of work to something that is essentially work to impress "strangers", but is that wrong?
To rimina: At least I really enjoyed your Dreaming Surrealist last Assembly. It was honest-to-god good, no need for self-deprecation or "beginner stuff".
@Trilkk: sounds like you need better girlfriends.
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the older i get, the less i care about what others think. whatever you do should be about impressing yourself (or not in some cases if that entertains you). that sort of goes hand-in-hand with finding pleasure in what you do and how you fill in your life in general.
so if you are socially reclusive, if that makes you happy, why expect that a more social approach would be better? if you WANT more social interaction, work on it. baby steps, yadda-yadda. if you don't want that. stay in the back of the hall staring to your laptop for 4 days. both work :)
Maali: so you're well under way to becoming a grumpy old man.
High-five!
According to my experience demosceners usually behave much better at parties than here online. They have good manners, are friendly, nice, you can talk to them without risking to be flamed. Pouet != scene && scene != pouet.
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According to my experience demosceners usually behave much better at parties than here online. They have good manners, are friendly, nice, you can talk to them without risking to be flamed.
On the other hand, this thread here is surprisingly tame and constructive. This topic seems to hit a nerve for many. :)
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It may be a motivation that works, but is it a good one? I keep asking myself If I spend those 20 hours a week just to impress people, which would be a bit sad.
I tell myself I like to step above the consumer crowd and spend ungodly amounts of my spare time to create things because it's a lot of fun and a very satisfying feeling to *entertain* people, not necessarily because I want to impress them. Although especially in the demoscene, I guess this distinction can be a bit blurry at times.
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For me the motivation to spend time working on scene-related productions is that I want to be productive and create something new. It is not about impressing people, it is about producing. For me the meaning of life is to produce. What others think about my works is secondary.I keep asking myself If I spend those 20 hours a week just to impress people, which would be a bit sad.
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Quote:On the flipside though, isn't that a very reasonable motivation to step above the consumer crowd and make something? (I know it was for me.)
It may be a motivation that works, but is it a good one? I keep asking myself If I spend those 20 hours a week just to impress people, which would be a bit sad. I guess it's a mixture of many things for me though, and if addiction to recognition as an antidote to anxiety is the push that I need to get going, then I'll take it, yes.
It's a double-edged sword, I'll admit to that much; you can easily get addicted to validation. Just ask Rodney Mullen.
Personally I make stuff because I enjoy doing so. I think one part that may have helped is that my social anxiety wasn't as bad (if even present at all) all those years ago when I first started out in the scene. I made my first demo and attended my first party without truely knowing what the scene was about, and of course, the demo itself was a huge flop, I felt mighty embarrassed at the time, but it was a good learning experience.
I made a bunch of other crappy things before finally making my first mIRC demo which was received pretty well, and some days I wonder what I'd be doing if I had never figured out how to make demos for it. I realize at this point the novelty has worn off, but it's something I know how to do and it keeps me busy.
Even if the surprise of the crowd isn't as big as it used to be the first few times, it just feels great to see all the effort I put into something on a screen that big... but I'm not sure if I can say that I do it *entirely* for myself. If nobody else would enjoy it or care about it, I doubt I'd be able to motivate myself to put as much effort into it... And sometimes, I wonder if people really do care, or if they're just feigning to like me/my art to do me a favor. I'm not sure if that's impostor syndrome or something else, but it's a thing, nonetheless... and I'll probably still continue to do things regardless because I just seriously crave attention and praise to the point where I've actually gotten upset about not being greeted in demos (yeah, I've got issues for real)
I'm not really sure what point I was trying to make but I guess I just needed to get that off my chest...
I made a bunch of other crappy things before finally making my first mIRC demo which was received pretty well, and some days I wonder what I'd be doing if I had never figured out how to make demos for it. I realize at this point the novelty has worn off, but it's something I know how to do and it keeps me busy.
Even if the surprise of the crowd isn't as big as it used to be the first few times, it just feels great to see all the effort I put into something on a screen that big... but I'm not sure if I can say that I do it *entirely* for myself. If nobody else would enjoy it or care about it, I doubt I'd be able to motivate myself to put as much effort into it... And sometimes, I wonder if people really do care, or if they're just feigning to like me/my art to do me a favor. I'm not sure if that's impostor syndrome or something else, but it's a thing, nonetheless... and I'll probably still continue to do things regardless because I just seriously crave attention and praise to the point where I've actually gotten upset about not being greeted in demos (yeah, I've got issues for real)
I'm not really sure what point I was trying to make but I guess I just needed to get that off my chest...
The response from the other people is always important for me. But, even being at a party goves me motivation to do something. I think I'm not good in some things like programming. I tried it many times and every time it was something crappy. So I concentrate myself to what I think I'm better in. I also like drawing pictures but this needs a talent which I don't have, so my pics look childish. About the music, I also think talented people can do much more than I. But I still do it because it's the thing I can do and I mostly receive positive responses.
I think you're confusing talent and hard work. You get good at things by working at it a lot, practicing, learning. Keep coding crappy things, eventually you'll make better things, and then good things :)
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I think you're confusing talent and hard work. You get good at things by working at it a lot, practicing, learning. Keep coding crappy things, eventually you'll make better things, and then good things :)
second that.
i did my first okeyish track after about 7-9 years of learning..
the trick is to learn enough to start playing like a child again..but with inner understanding of concepts and such and not giving a fuck if it sounds like shit to others.
The problem is that I don't enjoy coding much. Understanding how certain things work in programming takes me too much time, sometimes I never understand it. So I give up. It's a state that I think I really can't make that. So instead, I do things that I think I can do.
Factor6: the real problem is dedication. In order to become good or do something extraordinary, you need to sacrifice a lot of hours of your life. This obviously comes at a cost and if it doesn't pay off in the future (for various reasons) it's just a failed investment.
Luckily, demoscene is a group of hobbyist, so people understand here that what you do is far from perfect/top-notch and there is always this wanna-be aura around it. For me, I do programming professionally, but I like to create music/graphics in my spare time for the fun of it. At the same time, I know that more dedicated musician would easily outshine my rather amateurish attempts, but I don't care. Many people have similar approach I guess (see KK intro). But of course, to make your prod. more mature just hook up in a team, like Mercury or Conspiracy does with a great success.
Luckily, demoscene is a group of hobbyist, so people understand here that what you do is far from perfect/top-notch and there is always this wanna-be aura around it. For me, I do programming professionally, but I like to create music/graphics in my spare time for the fun of it. At the same time, I know that more dedicated musician would easily outshine my rather amateurish attempts, but I don't care. Many people have similar approach I guess (see KK intro). But of course, to make your prod. more mature just hook up in a team, like Mercury or Conspiracy does with a great success.
PS And of course AND productions.
But as many people would tell you: jack of all trades = master of none ;)
But as many people would tell you: jack of all trades = master of none ;)
Re: all the discuss about game-dev imposter/inverse-imposter insecurity - my grandmother had a lovely turn of phrase which springs to mind,
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Just remember, we all take our knickers off one leg at a time...
obviously she never tried doing it with both legs at the same time ;)
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obviously she never tried doing it with both legs at the same time ;)
My mum, uncle & aunt probably prove otherwise... ;]
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I keep asking myself If I spend those 20 hours a week just to impress people, which would be a bit sad.
It depends on which people. I coded demos to make my friends laugh, and eventually to make myself laugh. I don't think that's sad if at least one person liked it, even if that person was me.
