pouët.net

einfach mal weniger lack saufen

more like a clash between artists living for the art and artists living the artist life :)

This thread is a trainwreck and I'm appalled by the people that see no issue in threatening others whose opinions differ from theirs with violence and childish rudeness in the name of 'freedom of opinion' (with the irony in that being completely lost on them as well).

Did you actually READ through all the crap? I didn't.

Yeah, that 2004 ATI thing was quite the low point. I was standing at the mixing desk, completely horrified, and I desperately looked for the mute button for the fucking audience. Luckily Natalya and we orgas kinda agreed before that this might become a trainwreck, and as Smash said - she took it rather well, and we had a few nice talks afterwards in the "VIP" tent. Kudos to her for that, I think in her situation I would have kicked a few faces in, regardless of the negligible decline in GPUs sold.

And no, "BP2003/04 wasn't part of ordinary reality anyway" STILL doesn't excuse behaving like total dickwads. Absolutely nothing does.

I'm glad Natalya took it well, it sounds like appalling behaviour towards an otherwise much-respected person. I learned a lot because of her work for sure.

I think we're all in agreement re the ATI incident... I thought bitbreaker was defending the booing in *that* incident as freedom of expression, but that was my misunderstanding.

The quote he was responding to is an interesting talking point, though...


(Nosfe hasn't done any actual *noise* demos for a while, has he? Well, anyway...)

Is it socially acceptable to boo a demo during a compo? (and before you all jump on me: no, I'm not talking about having a specific written rule against it)

If your booing is interfering with other people's enjoyment of the demo, then I say no. Your freedom of expression is infringing on their freedom to enjoy the demo.

If your booing isn't interfering with other people's enjoyment (as in, you're booing after the demo was shown), then you're still being disrespectful to the author. Which is arguably fine, because nobody has an automatic right not to be offended.

It *is* the sort of disrespectful behaviour that a conference-style CoC might try to shut down, and if indeed the demoscene places freedom of expression above "don't be offensive to people", then that's the sort of policy we *don't* want to adopt.

But then what *is* the message? It's OK to be a dick to individual people, as long as you're not infringing on their freedoms?

Unlike some other places of the world, in most Western countries, we don't have actual written laws against being a dick. You sort of can be a dick, but then you're a dick.

gasman, not noisy enough for you?
i'll try more harsh approach next time then! :)

I am all for freedom of speech. At least as long as one is still acting a bit rational.

So booing is OK, IMO. Best after the demo.

Only if it's an obvious compofiller! :D

yzi: of course you have, numtek sent a link on a prev.page. If you had an event recorded or just take few witnesses it's not hard to imagine the "dicks" would have hard time defending themselves in court - I mean like seriously, for insult and sexual harassment you would at least be noted as a criminal offender and pay a fine - where do you guys you think you live, on the Moon? Nobody is using it against you just because they are nice and don't want to interfere with legal system (which may otherwise check what's going on in detail on a party place and not just "dicks", but orgas have a trouble). So to be honest, all those trouble makers should be thankful that others are allowing them to overreact their stress and frustration without legal penalties, and not the other way around. And sure, CoC would be there to protect orgas only (just in case deep shit happens) - but double-check with the lawyer. Although, I still believe it's not necessary, just keep that in mind. And yeah, legal system is not fun, so better avoid it.

nosfe: Oh yes, now I remember sticking my fingers in my ears and then rather enjoying that demo :-)

tomkh: Woah there. I don't think anyone here is talking about *illegal* expression, and if they are, you certainly don't need a CoC to shut it down. (And if a CoC *is* serving that purpose, then that's a very different understanding to what I have.)

tomkh: in order to pre-empt that argument, I said "most"! Hahaha. Well the ideal has been freedom of speech. In most countries anyway. Or at least that's my feeling, I haven't actually counted or made statistics. Google for "jyllands posten".

Isn't bad behaviour usually preferably handled with some social or other consequences to the offenders? Nah. Just set rules and policies. Easier and you don't have to deal with people, it's too hard for geeks anyway.

social issues in the scene? this is how we do it

In regards of the booing, it depends. Back in the days when I believed Nosfe and others did do these demos just to annoy the hell out of us, I did boo. Then, when I learned that he actually is serious about that noise stuff (and clearly showed that it hurts him not respecting that) I stopped doing it.

Okkie: Splitting hairs goes both ways. If putting "Viprinet's sponsor banner" and "sexual harassment" into one sentence means that Gasman totally didn't want to connect these two, then let me point out that I did not threaten him to punch him into his face, but stated that his lousy "sexual harassment" gives me the feeling to want to punch him into the face. And I doubt I would ever have a different feeling for any asshole trying to create a connection between art produced by my wife and rape.

Also, Gargaj very clearly is not a child molester.

Seriously: However tries to bring this kind of "terrorism" / "sexual harassment" / "think of the children" / "gender studies" facism to the scene to try limit art in our community will see me and others fighting against it wildly. If you don't like something, say that you don't like it, but don't try to make it look evil by trying to connect it to actual crimes or actual problems in the world, which none of this really is about.

gasman: sure, but as someone mentioned already CoC might only makes sense if you want to protect orgas in legal terms that they did everything they could to prevent violations. I am not sure if it's really the case, hence check with lawyer, also how liable anyone really is if some real criminal offence happens. Just keep in mind that what many people intuitively think is "ok" or say just mild harassment or "assholism", might be already a criminal offence, and I am pretty sure German law is more strict here than one can think.

(only read the first 3 pages I have to admit)
Final solution for the ghettoscener-question?
Und das an Führer's Geburtstag!

I'd say do very conservative code of conduct (going with common sense and/or general law - I guess there's no law prohibiting one from vomiting/pissing on sleeping people, yet I guess that's nothing one would want done to them with a full intend ... unless they went for the wrong party) and reverse the right to remove/have people removed who can't stick with it.

Banning booze/pr0n/weed/behaviour that might be considered inconsiderate/annoying/etc. - seems like someone went to the wrong party once again. Sexist stuffs? Surely something that can be adressed - but please get women involved there as well - the banner thing from Breakpoint 2005 mentioned is a prime example of "well meant, yet incredibly stupid in reality". Otherwise just go with law/common sense/consent there as well.

Done.

guys... the demoscene is one of the last land of freedom we have on this earth, please do not try to regulate it :(

We do not want to regulate just the demoscene, we want to regulate HUMAN SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR! :) Set your goals high!

tez: I totally agree with you, that's why, I believe, it is just enough to raise the potential issue like here on forum and potential trouble-makers would think twice next time, before doing it (or maybe write some general guidelines for people without common sense on party website, not a real CoC). And its pretty obvious to me that a cocky behaviour of some individuals around here is just to show-off, but those guys in reality are nice gentlemen ;)

pff, think big! why limit it to humans?

Speaking of which. I want a rule that governs Second Reality remixes. Many scene musicians were somewhat offended by the careless, or should I say, reckless handling of our beloved Second Reality soundtrack's beautiful melody lines in the recently released size-limited demo. There has to be a policy that prevents such unwanted behaviour. Or preferably, a regulatory body consisting of knowledgeable and tasteful musicians proven to be able to distinguish note pitches, to which all Second Reality remixes are to be submitted at least six months prior to the intended release.