Demoscene social issues
category: general [glöplog]
I should probably go to sleep, but this topic is very dear to me, which is why I come out of the woodwork whenever it's brought up.
With all of this outreach has anyone ever considered that women (and perhaps young people as well) just aren't that interested? I found the scene by accident, first playing around on a few local BBS, then progressing to a dialup connection where I had access to ircII and subsequently came in contact with sceners. I did the programming thing in high school, the computer science thing in university and found that it just wasn't for me. I prefer financial modeling and the legalities of commercial properties and investments ;) Anyway, my point is maybe the majority of women just don't want it as a career.
I feel like any hatred I've received over the years is not because I am a woman, but because people just don't like me. Not everyone can get along. I would like to add that the 'attention whore' is something that rubs me the wrong way. Women who enjoy the scene are not there for attention, but because they enjoy the demos, the environment and the people. I have been very fortunate to meet my husband through my scene friends ;) on the other hand, when it comes to sexism and harassment I have not experienced it, and believe me, I have been known to wear some low cut tops.
So, my question is why is there this desperate need for outreach when pretty much all of us have found the scene on our own? We didn't need special tables at a party.
I wish people would stop playing the sexist card too..
With all of this outreach has anyone ever considered that women (and perhaps young people as well) just aren't that interested? I found the scene by accident, first playing around on a few local BBS, then progressing to a dialup connection where I had access to ircII and subsequently came in contact with sceners. I did the programming thing in high school, the computer science thing in university and found that it just wasn't for me. I prefer financial modeling and the legalities of commercial properties and investments ;) Anyway, my point is maybe the majority of women just don't want it as a career.
I feel like any hatred I've received over the years is not because I am a woman, but because people just don't like me. Not everyone can get along. I would like to add that the 'attention whore' is something that rubs me the wrong way. Women who enjoy the scene are not there for attention, but because they enjoy the demos, the environment and the people. I have been very fortunate to meet my husband through my scene friends ;) on the other hand, when it comes to sexism and harassment I have not experienced it, and believe me, I have been known to wear some low cut tops.
So, my question is why is there this desperate need for outreach when pretty much all of us have found the scene on our own? We didn't need special tables at a party.
I wish people would stop playing the sexist card too..
Scamp: please read my follow-up post.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I didn't feel comfortable raising my concerns directly with an organiser when I was having a crappy time at Breakpoint 2005.
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Gasman: To claim that the Viprinet banners - who all have been designed by a fashion, a well-known female scener - are "sexual harassment" gives me the urge to punch your face the next time I see you.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I didn't feel comfortable raising my concerns directly with an organiser when I was having a crappy time at Breakpoint 2005.
jESSIKA: I had once a conversation with an artist/designer, she was interested in real-time art, so I recommended demoscene. She took a look, and the only complain she had was, well, she didn't like the "trippy" style so much (i.e. acid music and too much colors in the usual demo), although she was still curious. By this example, I think outreach makes sense, but I can agree with you, gender card has not much to do with it, as we should rather attract people by content.
On the other hand, I am not sure if there are only 10% women in IT (studying or actively coding and having fun with it), because women are simply not interested in this things or there are other barriers - I treat your experiences as an important feedback, but I would still cautious to jump on the conclusion.
On the other hand, I am not sure if there are only 10% women in IT (studying or actively coding and having fun with it), because women are simply not interested in this things or there are other barriers - I treat your experiences as an important feedback, but I would still cautious to jump on the conclusion.
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So, my question is why is there this desperate need for outreach when pretty much all of us have found the scene on our own? We didn't need special tables at a party.
Even without feeling a "desperate need", having a newbie program is a friendly, courteous thing to do, so why not?
Plus, some feel the number of active demosceners, i.e. those making high quality demos, is declining, and would like to go to a demoparty in 10 years and still see demos inbetween all the "hard partying".
I don't see this discussion going in any sensible direction, just wanted to mention that CCC has at least a wiki page with a statement against discrimination and contact information for help since 2012.
Nooooooooo, not this shit again.
Demoparties are not tech conferences.
Tech conferences like gdc, e3 and so on feature hordes of sober nerds trying to catch sneaky pictures of the remaining booth babes. They feature parties where women are paid to show up and talk to the guys. Demoparties are not that. Don't compare them.
But Demoparties are parties (it's in the name). Alcohol is a part of many people''s idea of a party and it brings its own issues.But demoparties have way less problems than many other forms of party - house parties, festivals, clubs and bars for example. A male dominated crowd in a club is a problem. In the scene in general the men are more respectful in the way they act towards women (at least outwardly) and each other, and it shows in the number of incidents we don't have to deal with. it may not be perfect but common sense needs to apply. The scene has come a long way and is one of the least threatening, most open and least troublesome party environments I know (And my girlfriend very much agrees after the several parties I brought her to).
imo a good party is a reward for the hard work you put into making shit and releasing it. If the scene has an issue, it's that it could just become an old man's drinking club and the releasea get forgotten - because the parties themselves are just too much fun. :) let's not let that happpen. . Without the demos, the party aspect is kind of sad.:)
Demoparties are not tech conferences.
Tech conferences like gdc, e3 and so on feature hordes of sober nerds trying to catch sneaky pictures of the remaining booth babes. They feature parties where women are paid to show up and talk to the guys. Demoparties are not that. Don't compare them.
But Demoparties are parties (it's in the name). Alcohol is a part of many people''s idea of a party and it brings its own issues.But demoparties have way less problems than many other forms of party - house parties, festivals, clubs and bars for example. A male dominated crowd in a club is a problem. In the scene in general the men are more respectful in the way they act towards women (at least outwardly) and each other, and it shows in the number of incidents we don't have to deal with. it may not be perfect but common sense needs to apply. The scene has come a long way and is one of the least threatening, most open and least troublesome party environments I know (And my girlfriend very much agrees after the several parties I brought her to).
imo a good party is a reward for the hard work you put into making shit and releasing it. If the scene has an issue, it's that it could just become an old man's drinking club and the releasea get forgotten - because the parties themselves are just too much fun. :) let's not let that happpen. . Without the demos, the party aspect is kind of sad.:)
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Plus, some feel the number of active demosceners, i.e. those making high quality demos, is declining, and would like to go to a demoparty in 10 years and still see demos inbetween all the "hard partying".
Yet the partying used to be harder, so a causation link between hard partying and fewer high quality demos is unlikely.
From what I've observed, it may just be that:
- on one hand, quite a few older sceners with experience are retiring due to, well, getting older, having more responsibilities and/or generally being jaded,
- on the other, many in the "new generations" (i.e. people in their late teens, early 20's) have a very pragmatic point of view on everything they do, including their hobbies, and don't see a point in making demos (because "how is that useful?")
Pouet's law is afoot: Every multi-page discussion on pouet, regardless of topic ends with a "scene is doomed/dead/dying" debate. :D
Oh shit, I didn't even notice I was entering that argument :-\
I don't get this thread. Not a single bit of it. Maybe i'm not well informed or miss a lot of things, but the worst things i remember on demoparties were:
- some drunk moron shat under a table
- 1-2 guys have sth stolen at an event with 1000 people
- a handfight
And as far as i remember my ex-wife was perfectly fine attending MS98/99 at a time where the man/women-ratio was entirely different. At that time the amount of attendees watching horses doing women and other porn was like 10 times as much as nowadays. And nobody ever gave a shit. At least my wife didn't.
You know what? This scene, unlike other scenes, worked pretty well with all of its diversity, common sense and sanity approach. This discussion feels superficial to me. Luxury problems, made up from everyday demoscene reality that - to be honest - at worst may offend someone.
As far as i get it, that's a fucking laugh. Even politics are billion times worse.
My 2 cent.
- some drunk moron shat under a table
- 1-2 guys have sth stolen at an event with 1000 people
- a handfight
And as far as i remember my ex-wife was perfectly fine attending MS98/99 at a time where the man/women-ratio was entirely different. At that time the amount of attendees watching horses doing women and other porn was like 10 times as much as nowadays. And nobody ever gave a shit. At least my wife didn't.
You know what? This scene, unlike other scenes, worked pretty well with all of its diversity, common sense and sanity approach. This discussion feels superficial to me. Luxury problems, made up from everyday demoscene reality that - to be honest - at worst may offend someone.
As far as i get it, that's a fucking laugh. Even politics are billion times worse.
My 2 cent.
I found this.
With reference to the second and fourth paragraphs, it seems the issue has come up before.
http://ms.demo.org/2002/rules.php
With reference to the second and fourth paragraphs, it seems the issue has come up before.
http://ms.demo.org/2002/rules.php
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So, my question is why is there this desperate need for outreach when pretty much all of us have found the scene on our own?
I haven't followed this thread so it might be that this is in reference to "all of us = female sceners", and if so: ignore the following, however if you're talking about general outreach then:
What? Do you honestly think that everyone just fell into the scene by yourself? No. You heard about it somewhere, got a demo from someone, got a link or came to a party with someone. You heard a song and fell down the rabbit hole of the Internet and discovered that it came from a scene musician, or you saw a picture and discovered that it was made my a scene graphician. Perhaps you attended school with someone who coded rotating cubes, or you went to a concert and saw some VJ show featuring demoscene clips.. Etc. etc.
That's the point: nobody "just found the scene". Everyone discovered it because they came across it in some way, and the more we share, talk about and spread demos and the scene, the more people will discover it. Thinking that anything can survive in a vacuum is ridiculous.
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That's the point: nobody "just found the scene". Everyone discovered it because they came across it in some way, and the more we share, talk about and spread demos and the scene, the more people will discover it. Thinking that anything can survive in a vacuum is ridiculous.
That.
So before i took my wife to her first party i told her: there will be folks watching porn, getting drunk and lost, but first and foremost: it's very friendly, funny and inspiring.
Btw, the sexist-social-club has 0 female members, right? Nuff said. Move on.
What I find most interesting in this thread is, that some people who all seem to come from the same side, try to stop the discussion.
I am still trying to figure out what's the motivation behind that.
I am still trying to figure out what's the motivation behind that.
I wonder how it is possible to claim that the demoscene doesn't have issues after scamps post.
jESSiKA: Actually I wasn't referring to you on that blowjob example, but I also think you missed my point: Whatever you do, it's ok, as long as it is not forcing harm on other people. Nobody who doesn't want has to watch.
In my post I've mentioned that girls in the scene are a complex matter, without anyone being to blame, and the reason not being sexism or anything like that. There are attention whores (And that is not meant in a negative way) and there are sceners who happen to be of female sex. And, as it turns out, there is also an overlap - in your case a scener who happens to be of female sex, who from time to time also enjoys being admired as a sex object. And that is fine, because to me the scene is about diversity.
In my post I've mentioned that girls in the scene are a complex matter, without anyone being to blame, and the reason not being sexism or anything like that. There are attention whores (And that is not meant in a negative way) and there are sceners who happen to be of female sex. And, as it turns out, there is also an overlap - in your case a scener who happens to be of female sex, who from time to time also enjoys being admired as a sex object. And that is fine, because to me the scene is about diversity.
Gargaj: Calling art sexual harassment is fascism. Hitting someone with a clue bat is simply using the right tool for the right job.
Or, to make it even more clear: Gasman is free to at any time do a demo about not liking my demo. But he's not free to have my demo censored. And he is free at any time to pay 10.000 Euro to have a banner next to my banner stating whatever he likes. He however is not free to demand my art not to exist. Do you get the point now?
Censorship and thought control is not OK. And this is what this whole "social issues" thread clearly is about. It's not about "let's be friendly and helpful to each other", because that's what we are anyway, it's about trying to take away freedom of others and forcing your view of the world upon them.
And that's plain disgusting.
Or, to make it even more clear: Gasman is free to at any time do a demo about not liking my demo. But he's not free to have my demo censored. And he is free at any time to pay 10.000 Euro to have a banner next to my banner stating whatever he likes. He however is not free to demand my art not to exist. Do you get the point now?
Censorship and thought control is not OK. And this is what this whole "social issues" thread clearly is about. It's not about "let's be friendly and helpful to each other", because that's what we are anyway, it's about trying to take away freedom of others and forcing your view of the world upon them.
And that's plain disgusting.
"I do not agree with the porn that you watch, but I'll defend to the death your right to watch it."
Re: the 2004 incident:
Perhaps we should have made clear in advance that the person you so lovingly refer to as "ATI chick" in reality wipes the floor with 99% of demoscene coders as far as graphics programming is concerned and has advanced the whole field more than most of us could ever claim. Please keep that in mind before you continue to treat her like a glorified booth babe, kthxbye.
Perhaps we should have made clear in advance that the person you so lovingly refer to as "ATI chick" in reality wipes the floor with 99% of demoscene coders as far as graphics programming is concerned and has advanced the whole field more than most of us could ever claim. Please keep that in mind before you continue to treat her like a glorified booth babe, kthxbye.
I can do quotes too:
"My freedom to swing my fists ends where your nose begins."
"My freedom to swing my fists ends where your nose begins."
I actually had to pause because there's just not enough sanity in the world to unpack all this, but let's give it a try.
Noone was saying that (see below), but also: No it's not. Sexual harassment is a legal term, not an opinion.
There you go, _that's_ fascism, or at least very least dictatorship: threats of physical violence against someone who doesn't agree and lets their voice heard. And I'm not implying you consider yourself to be a fan of either of those, but you shouldn't act like it either.
He's not censoring, he's simply suggesting that it's immature and outdated and perhaps potentially doing damage to the community. The latter noone can prove or disprove apart from anecdotal accounts, but it'd be nice if we could discuss it in a civilzed manner.
So whoever has the money makes the rules? That's your metric?
No, that's your twisted interpretation of it. Noone talked about censorship. What people talked about is, as Arcane so eloquently said, that 1995 was 20 years ago and social norms have changed, and while the scene has admirably followed suit in a very progressive manner, there's still some rough edges (and as many people said, a lot less than at other places) and we should perhaps talk about it IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.
Until you want to punch someone in the face for disagreeing or complaining.
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Calling art sexual harassment is fascism.
Noone was saying that (see below), but also: No it's not. Sexual harassment is a legal term, not an opinion.
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Hitting someone with a clue bat is simply using the right tool for the right job.
There you go, _that's_ fascism, or at least very least dictatorship: threats of physical violence against someone who doesn't agree and lets their voice heard. And I'm not implying you consider yourself to be a fan of either of those, but you shouldn't act like it either.
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he's not free to have my demo censored
He's not censoring, he's simply suggesting that it's immature and outdated and perhaps potentially doing damage to the community. The latter noone can prove or disprove apart from anecdotal accounts, but it'd be nice if we could discuss it in a civilzed manner.
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he is free at any time to pay 10.000 Euro to have a banner next to my banner stating whatever he likes
So whoever has the money makes the rules? That's your metric?
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Censorship and thought control is not OK. And this is what this whole "social issues" thread clearly is about.
No, that's your twisted interpretation of it. Noone talked about censorship. What people talked about is, as Arcane so eloquently said, that 1995 was 20 years ago and social norms have changed, and while the scene has admirably followed suit in a very progressive manner, there's still some rough edges (and as many people said, a lot less than at other places) and we should perhaps talk about it IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.
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It's not about "let's be friendly and helpful to each other", because that's what we are anyway
Until you want to punch someone in the face for disagreeing or complaining.
JTZ, my motivation is caused by pain imagining a party and scene where everybody behaves according to the rules of a superficial social codex.
I firmly believe we have a "code of conduct" already. It's common sense. And it works very well.
I firmly believe we have a "code of conduct" already. It's common sense. And it works very well.
Quoting gasman:
Yes, here we have it - art being called "sexual harassment". Terrorism. Sexual Harassment. Blasphemy. They are all the same cards fascists play to make sure freedom of mind is oppressed.
If you tolerate fascism, all tolerance will be taken away, so it's the exception to the rule that you should be tolerant to other peoples believes whatever they may. You needs to actively defend against fascists else they will take over your community. See your home country, for example. 'Nuff said.
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It's "common sense" that we don't tolerate sexual harassment, oh except the bigscreen is showing softcore porn and there's a sponsor banner over there with a picture of a guy in bed with two half-naked women.
Yes, here we have it - art being called "sexual harassment". Terrorism. Sexual Harassment. Blasphemy. They are all the same cards fascists play to make sure freedom of mind is oppressed.
If you tolerate fascism, all tolerance will be taken away, so it's the exception to the rule that you should be tolerant to other peoples believes whatever they may. You needs to actively defend against fascists else they will take over your community. See your home country, for example. 'Nuff said.
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Re: the 2004 incident:
Perhaps we should have made clear in advance that the person you so lovingly refer to as "ATI chick" in reality wipes the floor with 99% of demoscene coders as far as graphics programming is concerned and has advanced the whole field more than most of us could ever claim. Please keep that in mind before you continue to treat her like a glorified booth babe, kthxbye.
oh yes fucking yes! I was just about to post that myself. Thanks kb_
Oh, and common sense on this subject still is: Think the entry up there is softcore, and you don't like seeing naked people? Don't vote for it and/or look elsewhere. Don't like Nosfe's noise demos? Don't boo, use earplugs. It's your choice, and therefore absolutely not the reason to take away anyone else's choice.