286/386/486 Demoscene
category: general [glöplog]
Whacker Tracker and Scream Tracker definitely work, but as Scali said, you have to keep the samplerate low (8khz or so)
DigiStudio also works with EGA.
Re: 286 etc.
I think I didn't post this here yet, so here goes: http://www.kameli.net/yzi/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/yzi_fsprites.zip
It's a Turbo Pascal program (with source) that draws "code sprites" (generated code where sprite data is embedded as immediate operands) on a scrolling backround in page-flipped ModeX, working in full framerate on a 286/12. Thinking that I actually made such a contraption, or anything to begin with, in ModeX, makes my head hurt. Actually, all my stuff until about the end of 1995 was in ModeX. Aaargh. Texture+gouraud polygons... I've lost the source codes, but a ModeX texture+gouraud scanline innerloop in real mode assembly must have looked really nice, with my coding habits back then. Someone should have convinced me to drop the ModeX and real mode much earlier.
I think I didn't post this here yet, so here goes: http://www.kameli.net/yzi/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/yzi_fsprites.zip
It's a Turbo Pascal program (with source) that draws "code sprites" (generated code where sprite data is embedded as immediate operands) on a scrolling backround in page-flipped ModeX, working in full framerate on a 286/12. Thinking that I actually made such a contraption, or anything to begin with, in ModeX, makes my head hurt. Actually, all my stuff until about the end of 1995 was in ModeX. Aaargh. Texture+gouraud polygons... I've lost the source codes, but a ModeX texture+gouraud scanline innerloop in real mode assembly must have looked really nice, with my coding habits back then. Someone should have convinced me to drop the ModeX and real mode much earlier.
Drzeissler:
Dude, let us know when You have any songs made in 2015, using the 286!!! I have to listen to them!
Dude, let us know when You have any songs made in 2015, using the 286!!! I have to listen to them!
I did not get anything to works yet. Are these files proprietary formats? (e.g. hsc)
Yes, but that doesn't matter.
I'll release the source to something 486 and ModeX (320x240) soon, properly done. Could be a starting point for anyone interested in the only iteration mentioned here that isn't 100% masochism.
Accolade lives.
Accolade lives.
Hi folks, it's a great idea to reanimate oldschool pc demo scene with some clear guidelines for compos !
IMHO the ultimate oldschool machine, which specs could be reference for parties, is a 286/16 Mhz, 1 MB RAM, Soundblaster 1.5 / 2.0, VGA (e.g. ATI Wonder / ET4000), 42 MB HDD, MS-DOS 4/5 - sold and (in europe) standard around 1990 up to 1992 .. we've seen very impressive demos like Ultraforce' Vectordemo which is running flawlessly on this machine. But, as mentioned by others before, only a few prods were made for that hardware. No FPU, no DOS-Extenders, no VBE Stuff, only real mode ..
With PCem, the "PC Emulator", which has taken enormous steps towards compatibility (a lot of demos work) there is an environment which is perfectly suited for running that old school stuff cause of it's cycle accuracy that performs nearly like the real machines, in contrast to e.g. dosbox, so there is no need for real - but nowadays again really expensive - hardware.
https://pcem-emulator.co.uk/
IMHO the ultimate oldschool machine, which specs could be reference for parties, is a 286/16 Mhz, 1 MB RAM, Soundblaster 1.5 / 2.0, VGA (e.g. ATI Wonder / ET4000), 42 MB HDD, MS-DOS 4/5 - sold and (in europe) standard around 1990 up to 1992 .. we've seen very impressive demos like Ultraforce' Vectordemo which is running flawlessly on this machine. But, as mentioned by others before, only a few prods were made for that hardware. No FPU, no DOS-Extenders, no VBE Stuff, only real mode ..
With PCem, the "PC Emulator", which has taken enormous steps towards compatibility (a lot of demos work) there is an environment which is perfectly suited for running that old school stuff cause of it's cycle accuracy that performs nearly like the real machines, in contrast to e.g. dosbox, so there is no need for real - but nowadays again really expensive - hardware.
https://pcem-emulator.co.uk/
cool this emulator "emulates" a schneider euro-PC, I do indeed have the real machine for Demos :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhcW2MNL7Zo
I'd say the lack of productions for 286 is reason enough for it to not be an ultimate oldschool machine. Something like 386DX/25 or better yet, a 486DX2/66 would be more like it in my opinion. That's where the magic of DOS demos happened.
+1 on the 486DX/66.
8MB of RAM and a fast GFX card are also needed, IMO.
8MB of RAM and a fast GFX card are also needed, IMO.
LowEnd-Dos 286/10 :)
HighEnd-Dos 486/66 :)
That would be nice!
HighEnd-Dos 486/66 :)
That would be nice!
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a 486DX2/66 would be more like it in my opinion
Seconded. That's when the gold happened. There was basically "no" demoscene on the 286 and barely anything on the 386.
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I'd say the lack of productions for 286 is reason enough for it to not be an ultimate oldschool machine
That's a point. But I think the reason is, that around 1990 the pc demo scene started to live. Up to 1992 there was no real pc demo compo at the bigger scener parties.
But of course there are little reasons why a 486er couldn't be "the" oldschool machine. For me a 486er has "too much power" - 32 bit registers, FPU, UniVBE & Dos Extenders .. the charme of the demo scene is getting the most out of limited hardware, and for that reason a 286er seems better suited - 16 bit real mode is more challenging - more power leads only to increasingly complex 3d stuff. Compare the present C64 / Amiga scene with the PC Scene - Limits are sexy ..
But anyway, if 286 or 486 - groups and coders are needed, so it's obviously more a marketing challenge ;-)
Some friends of mine and I teamed up again to do some demo stuff for 286 PC, hope we can show something soon and others will follow .. but 30 years later it's like learning to code again :-)
High-End DOS: Pentium II was the last generation which supported ISA slots properly. Or K6-3 ;)
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That's a point. But I think the reason is, that around 1990 the pc demo scene started to live. Up to 1992 there was no real pc demo compo at the bigger scener parties.
Maybe because there was no reason for a compo, because there we no good demos, because 286 was not worth writing demos for? :D
Lately there has been lots of prods for weird platforms that never had a scene before. 286 might not be the ultimate DOS platform, but it would be interesting to see what people could get out of it. Aren't the suggested VGA and SB high specs though? It's a good match for 386, but I'd say EGA and Adlib are better suited for 286...
adlib? covox!
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Maybe because there was no reason for a compo, because there we no good demos, because 286 was not worth writing demos for? :D
what a about a zx spectrum or c64 ? it's never the tool, it's the man .. there are TI calculator demos .. the size of the scene is more a question of the right time - which machines dominated the rooms in the 80s/early 90s ? Not the PC ..
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Aren't the suggested VGA and SB high specs though? It's a good match for 386, but I'd say EGA and Adlib are better suited for 286...
Hm, I thought of that specs 'cause this was a typical setup for a 286 .. the first VGA came out in the early 80ies, ATI sold mid 80ies first VGA cards. Adlib is quite okay, just requires an fm synth OPL chip but; but the first soundblaster with fm synth OPL2 came out end of 80ies, so it's quite a good setup for a 286er ..
If VGA or EGA or even CGA .. there are some nice CGA/EGA demos, everyone should take, what gets the most out of the machine ..
Hmm Zoo party has a Wild Category that supports systems up to old 16 bits. 286 is 16 bits. I have 286 laptop. Hmm? :)
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That's a point. But I think the reason is, that around 1990 the pc demo scene started to live. Up to 1992 there was no real pc demo compo at the bigger scener parties.
By which time 386 was the standard.
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But of course there are little reasons why a 486er couldn't be "the" oldschool machine.
I think that "oldschool" is about nostalgia, really. It's about surpassing the technical limits of course and having fun with that but also about getting back to the feeling that was back then. I think having a 286 as a "definite oldschool" machine would be trying to redefine history.
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For me a 486er has "too much power" - 32 bit registers, FPU, UniVBE & Dos Extenders
For what it's worth, making a 486 run fast with VESA modes would be a challenge and the FPU is damn slow as well when compared to fixed point math. That's a technical challenge right there.
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.. the charme of the demo scene is getting the most out of limited hardware
For some definitions of charm, yes.
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, and for that reason a 286er seems better suited - 16 bit real mode is more challenging
Is it really? Sure in pmode you can more easily address more memory and with more registers, but in the end it's just implementing an algorithm in the code and making it run fast.
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- more power leads only to increasingly complex 3d stuff. Compare the present C64 / Amiga scene with the PC Scene - Limits are sexy ..
For me at least increasingly complex 3d stuff is a lot more interesting than let's say some EGA trickery to get more colors or making flat vectors run 50 FPS. I think that a 486 is at a sweet spot when it comes to limitations and possibilities, with the added upside that whatever you come up with can be directly compared with the heyday of the DOS demoscene.
Also, I think that the stregth of the modern C64 and Amiga scene comes from blending design with technical knowledge, with the emphasis maybe being slightly on the side of design.
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But anyway, if 286 or 486 - groups and coders are needed, so it's obviously more a marketing challenge ;-)
Some friends of mine and I teamed up again to do some demo stuff for 286 PC, hope we can show something soon and others will follow .. but 30 years later it's like learning to code again :-)
Indeed! I wish you success and am looking forward what you come up with :)
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LowEnd-Dos 286/10 :)
HighEnd-Dos 486/66 :)
Err, no. :) High-end would be a P200MMX (with 32 MByte RAM); this way you can watch all the MMX-only late-DOS demos and intros and yet still avoid the dreaded Pascal CRT runtime error. :)
@Preacher: I totally agree .. of course every machine has it's limits, and more power just extends the limits .. I vaguely remember VESA coding, pain in the ass ;-)
I guess, we can thus state, that "PC oldschool" is defined around 1990 - 1995,
as DrZeissler suggested with
LowEnd Dos Compo: 286er (up to 25 Mhz) + Adlib/SB + VGA
HighEnd Dos Compo: 486er (remember DX4-120 !) + SB/GUS + SVGA
486er machines are supported by PCem too, btw. ;-)
I guess, we can thus state, that "PC oldschool" is defined around 1990 - 1995,
as DrZeissler suggested with
LowEnd Dos Compo: 286er (up to 25 Mhz) + Adlib/SB + VGA
HighEnd Dos Compo: 486er (remember DX4-120 !) + SB/GUS + SVGA
486er machines are supported by PCem too, btw. ;-)
Cryptogermans... :/
The late MMX-Dostitles are mostly better, when they get a Win9x-DDX Port/Version.