Wikipedia's war on the demoscene
category: general [glöplog]
I am the worst at pouet - what they are up to here: http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-1-4471-5493-8
should that be a link? thats a link then! http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-1-4471-5493-8
as if science is the truth. read up on some Hume :)
the scene has had the exotica wiki for ages. who gives a shit about wikipedia?
"Logical positivists' verifiability principle—that only statements about the world that are empirically verifiable or logically necessary are cognitively meaningful", i think that's what's wrong or right about deletionists :)
nobody cares about Hume ESPECIALLY not people in the design department :)
ah true. sorry i mistook you for a scientist! ;)
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@Ringo: trying to pass off Wikipedia as a credible source in the academic world is a huge no-no, & thankfully so. But apparently it's just fine for mass media to use it as a fact source or just crib whole articles entirely, which means suddenly angry every-men/women know Wikipedia's view as "reality" on all kinds of subjects they never even *had* an opinion of before. These "notability" pedants are an arsehair away from being able to rewrite history (at least popular history) with their edit wars.
Agreed. I think it's a given that wp is 1st port of call (after google etc.) when anyone is researching a new/unknown topic. And yes there are many that abuse that and simply accept that as their primary source of info. But I think anyone who's even been near a tertiary education place in the last 5 years or so knows the the info on WP is not that useful or reliable.
Personally the only use I have for it is the references and external inks at the bottom of the page.
Oh and "random" mode when I'm bored.
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I think anyone who's even been near a tertiary education place in the last 5 years or so knows the the info on WP is not that useful or reliable.
Yes, and no. I still learn so much from Wikipedia everyday. In fact, I won't try to lie to anybody: I watch demos in Youtube and I learn from Wikipedia. I'm sorry :(
I noticed that the guy wants to delete Equinox indeed. No idea how to deal with that and not sure I want to get involved in those Wikipedia fights...
Forgot the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox_(Atari_demogroup)
Ok, I sprankled that link by Viznut all across the page. Let's see what happens next.
I think I've changed my opinion (on the demoscene articles, not on WP's asinine politics and toxic edit warring.) Let them delete them all. That way the google results for any of these groups/parties/etc might go to a *better* source, i.e. one not subject to this idiocy.
It's a shame, but WP is on a steam train towards irrelevancy anyway. I just hate to see people's hard work in creating these articles destroyed. All the more reason there should be a comprehensive scene wiki.
It's a shame, but WP is on a steam train towards irrelevancy anyway. I just hate to see people's hard work in creating these articles destroyed. All the more reason there should be a comprehensive scene wiki.
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Yes, and no. I still learn so much from Wikipedia everyday. In fact, I won't try to lie to anybody: I watch demos in Youtube and I learn from Wikipedia. I'm sorry :(
I too use wp most days - it's usually the next link I click after googling something (good point by jmph btw).
It's a tool. Sometimes useful but like any tool it has it's shortcomings. The fact that anyone can edit means the information is only as reliable as the knowledge of the last person to edit. Yeah.
It really comes down to how you use the tool - in this case for anyone learning about the demoscene may come across some dodgy wiki pages but let's be honest - if they're gullible enough to read everything there and believe it at face value with no further research, then maybe they aren't read for somewhere like here.
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All the more reason there should be a comprehensive scene wiki.
I think the important thing is that it shouldn't be a wiki. That is, not in the sense that anyone can just register and randomly edit articles.
I think the pouet-model works quite nicely: anyone can add new prods, but they can only edited by a select few. But there's an easy way to request changes.
Also, Wikipedia may not always be a reliable source, but it's also annoying when people ignore information BECAUSE it is on Wikipedia, since there is a lot of information that is correct, and wiki also links to reliable external references.
Look, the general issue is that of finding mentions in reliable mainstream sources. That's the same for any subculture. The way I see it the page Demoscene is in no danger of being deleted, nor pages falling directly under it. It's fine. We could add more quotes from paper books, I guess. Hacking Europe: From Computer Cultures to Demoscenes (History of Computing) may be added after it's been published, ISBN 978-1447154921.
Short-lived flashes in the pan like music genres seem to get off more lightly, though. Compare Ska to Chiptune. It's all about whether normalheads are convinced it's a 'thing'. Two Jamaicans with a piano and a guitar is a 'thing'? Bit of a laugh, that. Not that I mind ska. I removed the refimprove warning since lots had been added since. The article should be renamed to a genre and not an object, btw. For maximized encyclopedic 'cred'!
Short-lived flashes in the pan like music genres seem to get off more lightly, though. Compare Ska to Chiptune. It's all about whether normalheads are convinced it's a 'thing'. Two Jamaicans with a piano and a guitar is a 'thing'? Bit of a laugh, that. Not that I mind ska. I removed the refimprove warning since lots had been added since. The article should be renamed to a genre and not an object, btw. For maximized encyclopedic 'cred'!
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Look, the general issue is that of finding mentions in reliable mainstream sources.
I suppose my message is slightly different:
I don't really care whether or not the information is on Wikipedia.
What I do want is some source of reliable demoscene history. Not aimed at 'normalheads', but for other sceners. Perhaps younger sceners who would like to read more about how things went in the early days, who was around, what significant events occured etc (how about something like a timeline of music software? Starting with things like Chris Huelsbeck's Soundmonitor, then Soundtracker, NoiseTracker, ProTracker etc... I mean, something like this, but more complete, and focusing more on the scene-aspect of it).
The more technical/coding stuff can also be an inspiration to others who want to try their hand at retro-platforms. What demo was the first to show a certain effect? How did such an effect work? How was this effect improved upon in later demos? Etc.
Or just for other old farts who like to get all nostalgic and be reminded of the Good Old Days(tm).
I'm afraid the no-care attitude won't help in this thread because of the topic. I know of course that Pouet can be a place to show everyone how awesomely jaded you are, but I prefer to see that there is room for progression to go with the reminiscing.
As for "effect history", you're welcome to help out with Janeway, which supports orderly effect tagging, the only problem being finding consensus on what to call them, recognizing effect combos, and coders with enough skill to understand what they're seeing to fill it all in. The progressive approach would be to make new effects though, something that strangely doesn't seem to be actively pursued. Granted that achieving "new x" is easier when that scene is new, there seems to be a fetish instead with porting and re-releasing "old x" that is pervasive.
So anyway. The topic is demoscene articles in Wikipedia.
As for "effect history", you're welcome to help out with Janeway, which supports orderly effect tagging, the only problem being finding consensus on what to call them, recognizing effect combos, and coders with enough skill to understand what they're seeing to fill it all in. The progressive approach would be to make new effects though, something that strangely doesn't seem to be actively pursued. Granted that achieving "new x" is easier when that scene is new, there seems to be a fetish instead with porting and re-releasing "old x" that is pervasive.
So anyway. The topic is demoscene articles in Wikipedia.
Not familiar with the site, but I think this is the correct janeway link
Correct link for Janeway.
OK. Simultaneous correction collision. :]
:)
So, I heard there were people crying bitter nerd tears here? Awesome.
Minor technical gripe: it was scene.nl/wiki, but hey! Still have the database somewhere and it's no hassle to pass on or even put back in action at ye olde url. But that would mean somebody would have to take the time and patience to maintain the thing.
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Wiki.scene.nl is not coming back
Minor technical gripe: it was scene.nl/wiki, but hey! Still have the database somewhere and it's no hassle to pass on or even put back in action at ye olde url. But that would mean somebody would have to take the time and patience to maintain the thing.
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So, I heard there were people crying bitter nerd tears here? Awesome.
I suspect this is probably in reference to bitter exchanges in connection with the site originally being taken off-line, but when I think of people in possession of database backups I must say the first thought that pops up is that they are, hrm, nerds ;)
I think you would make those other nerds happy if you did :)
the scene.nl wiki was really useful, and i for one would love to see it coming back. don't have time to maintain it, though... :(
