Unconditional basic income
category: offtopic [glöplog]
Old skool gladiatorial cheeseboxing matches to the death?
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In the world ruled by the laws of thermodynamics, an amount of left-wing lazy fucks who would want to get anything for doing nothing, would have to be proportional to the amount of people who get nothing for doing anything. Unfortunately one can not spend his/her energy in exchange for nothing ad infinitum, so your communist paradise UBImination is as possible as perpetual motion. I.e. defied by the nature's laws.
Yeah, well you're a poopyhead, as defined by Newton's 2nd law.
What will come to the capitalist economics when robots will occupy all working professions? Governments can make the working day less, then less again, but not forever. Sooner of later, only engineering professions will remain. Not all people are suitable for those. But all the people want to eat. How to manage this?
^ The not so meek shall inherit the Earth?
Ha Ha
Gah!
Could we siphon some money from the public purse to combat sites that don't allow hotlinking?
Could we siphon some money from the public purse to combat sites that don't allow hotlinking?
I read back in this thread now and it's so full of gold (and when I say 'gold' I mean utterly stupid nonsense). I especially enjoyed this nugget of nothing whatsoever:
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In my opinion it is a great problem that nowadays people really have to work hard in order to pay the rent and other basic things, while there are not jobs for everybody.
Let's crunch some numbers quickly. All monetary units are in AUD as I'm too lazy to do more research than is necessary and I'm Aussie.
I'm using the Newstart Allowance and Commonwealth rent assitance and Australian Census data.
*Bear in mind that Newstart is a taxfree jobseekers welfare payment and thus is not unconditional - but it's the closest we've got to ubi*
Avg. Newstart payment for single, no kids - $501.00 fortnightly.
Avg. rent assistance - $95
Avg. private rent - $343 ftnt. This is high and has probably gone up!
Avg. Homeswest (subsidised housing) rent - no more than 25% of income (including newstart payments) - $125
Avg. (our) food bill for a family of 3 - $300/ftnt.
So $596*52=30992 per annum (remember, taxfree!) minus rent and food gives you - 8892 of taxfree playmoney! And before anyone complains yes I do realise that I haven't factored in bills - many utilities here are subsidised as well often by up to 50%!
Now let's have a quick look at what it's like to be at the "opposite" end. Australians on avg. earn $1,437.00 per week which equates to $68976 gross.
At that level a non-bludger could expect to pay $3,572 income tax plus 32.5c for each $1 over $37,000. Which would mean paying a further $10392.20 so we can say that net take-home on avg. is $55011.80
Using our same figures from earlier for rent and food (with no govt. subsidies etc.) we can say that a working Aussie will pay about $16692 in food and rent per annum. That leaves the princely sum of $38319 for beer money!
Of course again I haven't taken into account bills but hey - get a fucking job and you too could be 30 odd thousand dollars a year ahead of someone who is prepared to live off government subsistence. And I haven't even touched on all the hoops to be jumped thru and bureaucracy to be dealt with just to be a dole bludger!
I'm using the Newstart Allowance and Commonwealth rent assitance and Australian Census data.
*Bear in mind that Newstart is a taxfree jobseekers welfare payment and thus is not unconditional - but it's the closest we've got to ubi*
Avg. Newstart payment for single, no kids - $501.00 fortnightly.
Avg. rent assistance - $95
Avg. private rent - $343 ftnt. This is high and has probably gone up!
Avg. Homeswest (subsidised housing) rent - no more than 25% of income (including newstart payments) - $125
Avg. (our) food bill for a family of 3 - $300/ftnt.
So $596*52=30992 per annum (remember, taxfree!) minus rent and food gives you - 8892 of taxfree playmoney! And before anyone complains yes I do realise that I haven't factored in bills - many utilities here are subsidised as well often by up to 50%!
Now let's have a quick look at what it's like to be at the "opposite" end. Australians on avg. earn $1,437.00 per week which equates to $68976 gross.
At that level a non-bludger could expect to pay $3,572 income tax plus 32.5c for each $1 over $37,000. Which would mean paying a further $10392.20 so we can say that net take-home on avg. is $55011.80
Using our same figures from earlier for rent and food (with no govt. subsidies etc.) we can say that a working Aussie will pay about $16692 in food and rent per annum. That leaves the princely sum of $38319 for beer money!
Of course again I haven't taken into account bills but hey - get a fucking job and you too could be 30 odd thousand dollars a year ahead of someone who is prepared to live off government subsistence. And I haven't even touched on all the hoops to be jumped thru and bureaucracy to be dealt with just to be a dole bludger!
I like how you subtly compared TWO years of welfare to ONE year of payment via quietly discarding the word "fortnightly" when multiplying with 52.
I am torn on this issue, could someone point me to the opposite side of Ringo?
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I like how you subtly compared TWO years of welfare to ONE year of payment via quietly discarding the word "fortnightly" when multiplying with 52.
Welcome to "Economics101", you can find your texts at "www.Wikipedia.org". Also "Google", "I Feel Lucky". pp 1~1000000000. 2014.
ringo, srsly, nobody knows what point it is that you're trying to make anymore. you don't see to be addressing other people's arguments, you just spout your anecdotes and then expect us to understand and agree with... well, something, which i hope for you was a constructive point when it all started, but that is quite a while ago and most-if-not-all readers will have lost track or stopped caring by now. how about spending some time with your family instead, or just relax and have a beer if you like, maybe after a while you'll find inspiration to explain your own socioeconomic plans instead of just trying to shoot down other proposals with more anecdotes or complaining. kusjes, havoc
Friends will be friends.
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I like how you subtly compared TWO years of welfare to ONE year of payment via quietly discarding the word "fortnightly" when multiplying with 52.
Like facts matter.
Ik wil ook kusjes!
this thread seriously lacks ponies
@ted - thanks for pointing out my obvious mistake. It's lucky I didn't make the same mistake for my dissertation. At Oxford. *actual facts may not be true*
Since this is an internet forum I would have normally only have posted after having my theory peer reviewed and published in a relevant notable scientific journal.
Or maybe a friendly "Dude multiply by 26 not 52!" might have sufficed.
@nic0 - it's simple really.
Work hard, get paid, pay taxes. Watch CEO's of multibillion corps. get paid multimillion dollar bonuses ontop of their multimillon dollar salaries whilst many of us struggle to afford our basic amenities.
Observe politicians from both sides of the fence happily agreeing in the name of bipartisanship that they need a pay increase, after increasing our taxes and announcing austerity measures.
Now if you've comfortably accepted all of these things it won't make much difference at all to you when a govt. agrees to implement a UBI.
Then you'll get $40 a week. Cool.
Then VAT or whatever value added taxation setup will have to be increased a few percentage points to accommodate the new payments. Then several mega-corps CEO's will announce bumper profits and thus dividends for the shareholders which will in turn net them a nice bonus.
Of course all of the amenities and utilities owned by the mega-corps will have also raised their prices to the consumers over that years as well...
Because the govt. has been working SO hard on the UBI and it's implementation they'll need more time off. Oh, & a payrise. Of course the public sector union will complain about that so they'll all have to get payrises too. i think a few other unions may follow up on that. Maybe.
Now unfortunately due to "pressing economic concerns" we "all" need to adhere to some new austerity measures and tax increases.
Hey at least we're not bailing out the bankers again like we had to a few years ago, right?
Enjoy your new UBI. I'm sorry it doesn't quite meet the new amount you have to pay in cost of living, income tax increases and vat/gst taxes.
Like I said, simples!
Since this is an internet forum I would have normally only have posted after having my theory peer reviewed and published in a relevant notable scientific journal.
Or maybe a friendly "Dude multiply by 26 not 52!" might have sufficed.
@nic0 - it's simple really.
Work hard, get paid, pay taxes. Watch CEO's of multibillion corps. get paid multimillion dollar bonuses ontop of their multimillon dollar salaries whilst many of us struggle to afford our basic amenities.
Observe politicians from both sides of the fence happily agreeing in the name of bipartisanship that they need a pay increase, after increasing our taxes and announcing austerity measures.
Now if you've comfortably accepted all of these things it won't make much difference at all to you when a govt. agrees to implement a UBI.
Then you'll get $40 a week. Cool.
Then VAT or whatever value added taxation setup will have to be increased a few percentage points to accommodate the new payments. Then several mega-corps CEO's will announce bumper profits and thus dividends for the shareholders which will in turn net them a nice bonus.
Of course all of the amenities and utilities owned by the mega-corps will have also raised their prices to the consumers over that years as well...
Because the govt. has been working SO hard on the UBI and it's implementation they'll need more time off. Oh, & a payrise. Of course the public sector union will complain about that so they'll all have to get payrises too. i think a few other unions may follow up on that. Maybe.
Now unfortunately due to "pressing economic concerns" we "all" need to adhere to some new austerity measures and tax increases.
Hey at least we're not bailing out the bankers again like we had to a few years ago, right?
Enjoy your new UBI. I'm sorry it doesn't quite meet the new amount you have to pay in cost of living, income tax increases and vat/gst taxes.
Like I said, simples!
I would like to point out that no Fact-Checking Bean Counters were harmed during the writing of my post.
What I think is maybe more of a issue than whether we should pay for/get a UBI is the scary fact that many 1st world countries still don't have free food (despite some people's middle class prejudice), subsidised housing and free health care.
Maybe we should discuss that?
Maybe we should discuss that?