pouët.net

Shifter: don't be so cynical. Just ask Magic or Bobic about Hyde's new super group.

Hyde's super group? Not with that horrible dubstep he seems to choose all the time.

Seriously tho, it's not that artists or musicians are in any way dependent on a coder in these years (apart from the ones that wrote all the creative tools ofc) if they want to create or get some appreciation or whatever. But on the other hand the coders' contribution is what distinguishes demos from almost all other audiovisual art forms.

maybe i need a disclaimer: "my comments, opinions and demoscene activity are in no way endorsed by my employer".

that kokato thread is depressing. remind me to ensure my job and my hobby never get linked in any way at all. the pouet comments were bad enough. i wish this had never made it to kokatu and been presented in this way, they've done us more harm than good.

this was just a small demo made in a quite short time for fun for a quite small eastern european demoparty. it aimed to prove a new effect that's never been done in realtime before (large scale volumetric rendering w/fluids, shadows, lighting etc - if you think you can do this same thing with particles right now, or could be done on a ps3 at 30hz, you're .. wrong/thick. trust me. in both of those topics i know what im talking about.), and enable some messing around with procedural "infinite landscape" generation. it's wrapped up into a package with an actual concept. it could be better, it's too long and there were some bugs etc. if you were expecting anything more, it doesnt live up to your expectations or whatever, tough shit. if you like it, great. that's where it ends.
honestly i think the audience reception was harsh on both sides of the fence and i think the expectations for "big name" demos these days is completely unreasonable especially given how few are released and how poor the "average release" actually is. there's always scope for criticism but it's important to keep a balance and an open mind.

now i guess i should comment on the whole "ps4 demos" thing (reminding of my earlier disclaimer) - as gargaj said, the issue is that opening a platform to anyone who is not a registered developer and has not signed a load of legal agreements is either a) going to take a lot of effort and cost on the part of the platform owner to make a secure environment, or b) going to scare the bejesus out of publishers who make big games for the platform and are worried about piracy. or c), both.

if the only way to release demos legally on a platform is by registering as a developer and getting a devkit, then putting the demo out on the store (even if for free), that costs someone a bunch of money - kits, release certification etc etc, even ignoring the time and resources sunk by the person who actually has to make the damn demo.

while ive heard an argument for why someone would want to watch a demo (for free) on a ps4/xbone, i havent heard a good argument why someone would want to make one (this thread is not full of people from the handful of remaining good demogroups who could actually make this worthwhile, asking to make a great demo on these platforms for free), and i havent heard a good argument why a platform owner would want to throw the required money and resources at it to make it happen.

so what is left is just a bunch of people going "it would be nice if someone else would do this so i can watch it.. (for free obviously. and i'll probably diss it for some reason when it happens.)", which is exactly whats wrong with pouet/this scene nowadays.

+1

kb: oh, don't misunderstand me - the demos I've worked on with Hyde _definitely_ has his fingerprints all over them, but the final result is always a tight collaboration between someone who likes math and someone who hates it. :)

what smash said on this post (testing the bbcode toolbar ;-) )

Rez:

I wonder which Word do the guys at the article use. I just saved a completely empty word document and it was 11kb :-)

QFT.

that argument was.. dare I say.. SMASHING

I understand how you feel, but I'm not sure you are correct. It's not like "all PR is good PR", but if someone more understanding than those in the Kotaku comments are picking up and thinking about scene demos on nextgen platforms, perhaps it comes one step closer to reality.



I think most people with insight and brains understands this. Demos are not done by people getting paid. It's an enthusiast thing that often creates brilliant results.



How much time and money, really, are we talking about to have someone at i.e. Sony go through code and giving green light? The PS4 is already getting swamped by indie coders and it sounds like they are both getting heaps of devkits and a practically free path to release. I might be wrong, but gradually giving devkits (perhaps as demo compo prizes) to groups can't make even a small dent to their bottom line imho.



Some reasons: 1. You. 2. (if that isn't clear enough) Getting good coders, artists, musicians etc. closer to nextgen platforms. 3. Demo guys often go ahead to make games. 4. When people see demos they're likely to love them and use their console more. 5. Monetization. Maybe not, but perhaps there is a way.



That might be the nail in the coffin right there. I was hoping a closed system would prove exciting to sceners. Seeing the craft and productions evolve as the system gets older was one of the most awesome things about systems like the Amiga. The chance to reach a bigger audience would to me also seem like a good thing. Getting hands on nextgen consoles is also not exciting to coders?

Ps. Thanks for the post Smash, and sorry for tipping off Kotaku if that has caused you problems. I started the thread with a wish to hear if the scene was interested in nextgen stuff and thought they might contact you so we/I could hear more about what was going on.

Lol

Laugh all you want. I freely admit I have no clue. But what is Apple, to take a different example, doing to check their app store releases to make sure they are not harming the guys downloading them? Some heavy automation must be at work.

Did you understand what Smash said above?

Also:



Mega-LOL.

Haha, cool!

I mean about the gargaj sketch

With all due respect, and I really appreciate the enthusiasm here, but you're not trying to think with the head of a person responsible for the success of the follow-up console of something that sold ~60 million units. Who would you want to please, the "indie" crowd that doesn't care about money (as long as they can spend yours), or Activision / EA / etc. who will have no issue paying you double-comma sums to be able to deliver quality content that has been proven to be a financial success over and over?

What specifically are you referring to? That he's kinda depressed about the response on Kotaku?

Did you understand me though? I'm OK with the scene wanting to shrink even more than today, but you don't have to shit on a guy who loves it and want to give it a larger audience and perhaps more active participants. It seems like a fools errand, but I'll never regret coming here and starting debate.

Dunno about Sony, for Microsoft it was "tens of thousands of dollars". and I don't imagine Sony to be a lot more lenient. Oh and that's not code-review, that's just certification.

Thanks, but the enthusiasm is about to need recharging here ;)

If the "indie" crowd are the guys making the next Minecraft, then I guess it makes some sense. And that's why Sony in particular are so focused on them. Will scene prods make Minecraft money? Nope. But Sony has been known to deliver stuff like Net Yaroze and other things that are not really cash machines.

> The PS4 is already getting swamped by indie coders and it sounds like they are both getting heaps of devkits and a practically free path to release

Indie games are very valuable to a console. They greatly increase diversity of games, and they help ensure there's always something new to play. Most importantly they cost money to play, and the console manufacturer gets a cut: they make them money. It's business. :) It's a very different proposition to demos, where the "business benefit" is harder to see.

> I might be wrong, but gradually giving devkits (perhaps as demo compo prizes) to groups

By the way, all devkits provided by Sony are never sold or given, they are only licensed.

Allowing devkits into the wild to someone who hasn't signed the various legal agreements, registered as a developer etc etc is not something console manufacturers wish to encourage because it's an easy path to the console getting hacked. try buy a devkit on ebay and see what happens to you. :)

i reckon console demos would actually be popular to make.. it'd be great to have a nice fast, fixed platform. And ps3/xb1 would be good in a way - they're familiar enough, we don't have to learn to write for the cell or anything. Then again, funky custom hardware is more interesting.

Can't see it happening though :) The work needed from the console makers in no way justifies the reward.

Smash: people tend to judge demos in many different ways. The main thing you've got going against you is that you're in the premier league, you're not going to get judged by 3rd division standards :D Agree on the kotaku article though - that probably wasn't a good choice of demo for their audience.

Are you going to write anything on the demo btw?

polargamer: helpful hint: gamers aren't really the audience for demos any more, nor are they likely to be interested in getting involved in making demos. Game makers on the other hand have the skills needed and the knowledge to appreciate what we're doing.

Minecraft is the grandfather of bad examples - here's a prod that made a million sales before anyone in the gaming press has heard of it. What that means is that noone predicted the success, and is likely to be unrepeatable on purpose.

Sony has been ambivalent as far as indies go: the PS3 was notoriously unfriendly for them, but then they did the Plastic / FR demo projects, which was an interesting outreach. Unfortunately as far as I've been told it was a gruelling process both on the execs and the demogroups, and it's unsure whether it was worth it in the end. Microsoft did this slightly more cautiously with XNA on the 360, but at the same time they never really followed up with it even though we did some good demos.

One thing you gotta remember that we as sceners are in it for fun and fun only, while they're in it for the profit (they're companies, that's what they do). That means that while we'd love to bang out a demo on a console after a weekend of drunken haze and then forget that they ever existed, they have a lot more rolling on it, which is why they have deadlines, technical guidelines, certification, contracts, NDAs, everything professionals have to keep themselves from being shipwrecked by something that can either easily backdoor the console or bring them bad press. (Both of these are a lot harder than they sound.)

But let's say they figure out a way to make a convenient environment for homebrew (again, something like XNA). Suddenly the scene is 1% of their intake and the remaining 99% are prototype indie games, ripoffs, trolling, etc etc etc which they SOMEHOW have to weed through if they want to present any of it in a centralized marketplace-style manner. And what's their profit? Nothing. They spend energy and funding on moderation, testing, reviewing, and I'd imagine they get very little in return, because - and here's the crux of the problem - you saw how people (= the audience) on Kotaku (and Pouet) treated a demo that was ostensibly what you were looking to see. The same thing happened to Linger In Shadows, btw.

So even if they break all the limbs they have to get demos on consoles, I don't see how the audience would appreciate it.