pouët.net

This actually brings me to something I couldn't wrap my head around for years now: Male graphics artists in the scene mostly draw ladies, often with disproportionate body parts and revealing clothing - all well and good, boys will be boys, I guess. But why is it that a considerable portion of the artist ladies in the scene also choose the same trope? Surely there's more to it than just catering to the audience, right?

Ok then, let's just add "nsfw" tag to this logo, so only people who registered and checked the "show nsfw logos" checkbox will see it.

Maybe because the female body is suppose to be the vessel for beauty. We, all of us, are taught this.

Tomoya> I'd be satisfied with that

oh fuck

looks like you have to make a nsfw column in the logos table, I can't do that.

well boobs and demoscene kind of have history...
its male, its kind of sexist (you'll have to agree), but its always been there.

but yes, i do have to agree it doesnt exactly has to be on the pouet front page by random.

By expression I meant milk.

Sigflup, I back you up. And thank you for backing Sigflup up, Gargaj.

Pardon me while I reiterate this by the most forceful means possible via text.

There are going to be a lot of profanities and big words here, just to warn you. Apologies. I am too tired to rewrite this. Eat a godamn fucking dictionary sandwich. I am avoiding godamn idioms. I am going to ramble. I won't be going back and editing this, so it won't be cogent and concise and all that happy horseshit.
Now . . .

Dude, THIS SHIT IS BORING.
Talking about this is not drama, Knoeki, although as usual your ponies are cute. Not a pony person myself, but cartoon lolcats seem appropriate to the level of maturity in most if not all internet shitfights. Anyway, If I wanted drama I could talk in public about a variety of similar things that have bugged me over the years, instead of primarily people I know will sympathize with me and maybe even give a fucking shit when I vent to them. But I decided one person can't take a big thing like this on, and decided to ignore it, which given my uneven people skills is not necessarily a bad idea. *wry* And not all primarily male interest communities are as selfish as this one, which has something to do with its cultural context vis a vis computing careers and the games industry . . . but I am not going to explore that any further thank you, it has been done. Hence BORING.

Just because mostly teenage boy children started the demoscene doesn't mean it needs to remain the preserve of teenage boy children, and retain their blinkered mentality, wysiwtf, and others.

I swear as a graphician never to make art that objectifies any category of humans.

What does objectify mean? It means to turn a whole category of people into symbols for what is in your own head, instead of individuals. It means to define someone, for example, by their gender phenotype or chromosones. To tell someone else that who they are as a person does not matter, no matter what awesome things they do--and in fact if they do awesome things, that is of course remarkable in spite of them being part of this blob entity that they signify to you.

It is different to draw a pair of disembodied testicles than to draw a pair of tits, because the objectification of women, of turning that entire category of people into symbols, THINGS, rather than human beings who think and dream, is a very old thing, embodied in the laws and attitudes which refuse them the right to vote, to own property, to bequeath items in their wills, to become athletes and scientists and leaders, not to be defined by whether they have children or not, to have a choice whether to have children or not, to not have their lives limited by the expectation that they be those children's primary caregiver and be judged in their every childrearing choice by those around them, to be taken seriously, to be allowed to fail and be emotional without being transformed into living exemplars of stereotype. The kind of attitudes which mean that they can be beaten and it is a private family matter, other horrifying things done to them and it somehow is their fault.
And this is about no one religion or region or culture; this legacy of violence exists all over the world.
And it is directly connected to the idea of women as things.
And I'm not some anti-pr0n crusader; pr0n does not have to objectify people, does not have to be violent, does not have to be a Bad Thing, mmkay? But this is NOT about pr0n, or prudishness, or humorless feminism. I have a sense of humor, but if you are an jackoff, I WILL tell you to go fuck yourself up the ass with a chainsaw. In my head anyway, because if I did that all the time everyone would decide I was a humorless feminist.

So clue the FUCK up guys.

Yeah, it seems like no big deal. I've become inured to it from having to be. And I like a beautiful shape as much as the next guy. But think about this: why are female bits desirable in the scene, and male bits mostly considered hilarious? (Which is heterosexist as well, but anyway, that is a whole other thing I'm not getting into right now).

But in the scene, chicks in graphics are props, like racecars and dragons. They are a thing to want, and no more. And I say that when there are demos I really enjoy that have female bits in them, that is because they are well drawn, not necessarily because they are female bits. SO hmm, MAYBE YOU JUST HAVE TO LEARN TO FUCKING DRAW AND GROW AND IMAGINATION.

And the more respected demosceners who come out and say this, the more likely we are to see change. Nobody is going to listen to me and sigflup, pretty much.

But they will listen to Gargaj, and Preacher, and Gloom and . . . all of you who I know know the way women are viewed in the scene (and not just the scene) is wrong.

Anyway, nobody will give a fuck for this poorly written screed, but I am going to write it anyway. Because it feels good to scream this for a godamn change. And I'm sorry I'm not very imaginative in my profanities.

La la. Back to real work on graphics I am doing for demos I am collaborating on with other people, and organizing for the party I run. REAL DEMOSCENE SHIT.
Now get your fucking act together, or STFU.
go be an ass on IRC. One reason I am rarely on IRC, besides being kinda antisocial.

Jesus F Christ that is a wall of text.

Tomoya: people with your shitty attitude, and the wikipedia soccer hooliganism, is why your scene is dying, and why I exited pouet and the scene connected to it years ago. You've got this chance to advance beyond the significance of an xbox live clan and what did you do with it? Threw it back and made fun of the person who pointed it out.

Where'd blackpawn go? He took pouet's best ideas, burned away its worst, and built an art colony. There's a hell of a lot better 2d art there than I've ever seen represented here, and -huge surprise- BOTH genders in the crowd.

I've always thought of the euro crowd as insular and xenophobic, and with this, you've thrown sexist on top. Well done. Kill it off. Drive them all away. Then you can go back to trading porn screensavers in peace.

Here's the sad thing: you can't vote that logo down. I tried. I got it 4 times in the header while trying to vote, but not once did it show up on the voting page show I could hit the "sucks" button. So we're stuck with this logo more than a few people object to? :-/

Pixeled and topless is the only kind of woman needed in the scene.

Just wanted to post that nicely painted evil octopus ;)
Ontopic:
To me its just art...art is free.
Having that sort of logo on the frontpage is discussable...altho the page refreshs (F5) in few milliseconds, a second solution would be to use the mousewheel to fastly scroll down a bit. So not having it on the screen can be done easily.
I saw that logo very very seldom btw, i guess we have quite a lot of logos by now :)

Thanks to metoikos for pointing out what I thought, maybe you should watch your language, though ;)

Yeah, let's not generalize...

GbND: Yeah, and we're all nazis. go fuck yourself.
on topic: i was kinda embarrassed sitting in the crowded undergroud next to an elderly woman, checking pouet when this logo came up.. yes, it is objectifying, even if it was maybe not the main intention by the artist to put women down.
if people feel uncomfortable with it, it should be removed, or there should be an option for them to filter it. here's an practical advise until a proper option is in place: install adblock and block it individually - nice sideeffect: you get rid of dumb ads on not so cool sites.
and now, let's draw some cocks for karma! 8====)

btw. i would love to know how lycan thinks about this discussion.

*ahem*

I did the boobies logo. It was done because somebody jokingly requested it. It was a ten minute job for a quick laugh.

I've *never* actually seen it displayed on the site, and so I thought that it had been deleted by admins, or downvoted. Apparently not, since we're having this thread.

Now.

Can we stop the scene drama at this point? Those of you who know me, know that I would never willingly insult anybody or hurt anybody's feelings. It appears that unwillingly, I have done so. For that, I'm sorry, and I apologize! Delete the logo, I'm fine with that.

wishing you all the best, manlove and love in general:
farfar

What metoikos said, for the most part. I was unaware there was a pouet logo with disembodied boobs (since I've disabled them). It's unfortunate. I'll contribute to the scene yelling, because many of you seem to need it:

During my relatively short time here it has become very apparent just immature the scene is. It's toxic to newcomers and to women especially. The continued gender disparity is evidence of this. Though I like to imagine it's better among younger participants who aren't stuck in circlejerks like the C64 scene.

To the people who might try to derail this thread further: it's not the 90's any more. This stuff is important. The IT sector needs to grow up. This includes the scene. Or you can go back to screaming "AMIGA!". You know, like the good old days!

On a positive note, at least the scene isn't as bad as the CCC..

(I'll also take this opportunity to say that I distance myself from anything I may have said prior to January 2013. I was ignorant.)

Boobs rule, but I am not sure how SFW or NSFW this logo is considered. Yesterday some colleagues wanted me to show them some demos and I visited pouet to download stuff. I worried a little about that logo popping, not a big deal since my colleagues are cool, just not sure.

Gbnd: yea, and you pan Americans are so repressed you're only able to understand moralistic prudism or porn and nothing in between. Idiot.

the "objectifying women" argument is almost as old in the scene as the images blamed for doing it - this is not a brand new liberated original standpoint. There are shades of grey here.

Tjoppen: Let the IT-sector grow up, no probs with that. But this aint the IT-sector, this is the demoscene, the playground of all of us, our hobby, where we can do whatever we want because noone else cares except of us anyway. Demoscene is an anarchistic subVibe in the meanings of life only applyable to us few...we wont ever grow up concerning the scene ;) (we only still do it due to nostalgia about our youthDays anyway, hehe! Ok, doesnt apply to nonOldFarts maybe...)

gargaj and glöperators: remove the logo as requested by farfar and lets move on to the next scenedrama pls :)