Its time for a .Werkkzeug category!
category: general [glöplog]
That is wrong i think.
Many groups use own demotools but they make them not public so you will put those demos in the same category ???
All demos include many work and time, it doesn't matter how they was created.
Many people can't handle demomaker tool and it is realy not so easy to make a demo with a demomaker tool.
It is correct that is a harder way to learn coding, but it is also hard to make good prods with a demotool.
I must remember every time that not all members in a demogroup are coders.
A demo needs a coder that is correct but a good demo needs also good graphic and music artist.
And again to all the people who think it is realy so easy to work with a demotool, try it and you will see that it cost many time and work to do that....
Many groups use own demotools but they make them not public so you will put those demos in the same category ???
All demos include many work and time, it doesn't matter how they was created.
Many people can't handle demomaker tool and it is realy not so easy to make a demo with a demomaker tool.
It is correct that is a harder way to learn coding, but it is also hard to make good prods with a demotool.
I must remember every time that not all members in a demogroup are coders.
A demo needs a coder that is correct but a good demo needs also good graphic and music artist.
And again to all the people who think it is realy so easy to work with a demotool, try it and you will see that it cost many time and work to do that....
*sigh*
Admittedly my experience with creating demos is really really really really really really realy limited. Two, to be precise.
Oone was made with a demotool, the other without. Guess which production was more fun to create?
Even though I am guilty of using Werkkzeug, I *DO* think it lacks a bit of that mythical "scene spirit" to use some other group's tool. You're simply not collaborating with the coder, instead being relegated to nothing more than a user.
To me collaboration is what the demoscene is about. (Okay, 256 byte intros are possible exceptions.)
While I do sincerely thank Farbrausch for allowing me the opportunity to see what makes their demos tick, it's time to move on. The best demos use not only unique graphics and sound, but also unique code. Simple as that.
And dammit, I *am* moving on. (Hopefully forward too...)
Admittedly my experience with creating demos is really really really really really really realy limited. Two, to be precise.
Oone was made with a demotool, the other without. Guess which production was more fun to create?
Even though I am guilty of using Werkkzeug, I *DO* think it lacks a bit of that mythical "scene spirit" to use some other group's tool. You're simply not collaborating with the coder, instead being relegated to nothing more than a user.
To me collaboration is what the demoscene is about. (Okay, 256 byte intros are possible exceptions.)
While I do sincerely thank Farbrausch for allowing me the opportunity to see what makes their demos tick, it's time to move on. The best demos use not only unique graphics and sound, but also unique code. Simple as that.
And dammit, I *am* moving on. (Hopefully forward too...)
try it and you will see that it cost many time and work to do that....
wickedz: You wrote that you spent 1 week doing your fr-19 fake. That is NOTHING from a time perspective, I repeat NOTHING.
wickedz: You wrote that you spent 1 week doing your fr-19 fake. That is NOTHING from a time perspective, I repeat NOTHING.
Yes but i need more time (2 month) to learn how to work with werkkzeug.
And before werkkzeug i spend many time with watching demos and i try to understand how the effects and things could be done.
This time i must also add to the learning phase.
I did not download werkkzeug and have done the demo without any knowledge of all the demothing.
I am watching demos and intros since 1988 and i tried many times to code something on my C-64, after that i try it on my Amiga. I must say the coding thing is nothing for me it is to hard or i am to dumb for coding.
My first prod was a rebuild from Farbrausch ok i know that it was not ok to post a prod like this in the public.
But the next one is a 100% own prod with my own ideas and so on...
Sometimes you must make mistakes to learn ;-)
And before werkkzeug i spend many time with watching demos and i try to understand how the effects and things could be done.
This time i must also add to the learning phase.
I did not download werkkzeug and have done the demo without any knowledge of all the demothing.
I am watching demos and intros since 1988 and i tried many times to code something on my C-64, after that i try it on my Amiga. I must say the coding thing is nothing for me it is to hard or i am to dumb for coding.
My first prod was a rebuild from Farbrausch ok i know that it was not ok to post a prod like this in the public.
But the next one is a 100% own prod with my own ideas and so on...
Sometimes you must make mistakes to learn ;-)
one week for a prod is quite a lot when it comes to the actual effort involved...
Demogroups who makes demos with demotools can indeed pull of a nice set of demos and intros, and the products I respect, but the demogroup? No, I respect the n00b with a spinning cube more!
I'm not saying I've pulled of any demos that shaked the world or anything, but at least I have my own code, and I'm not going to use a demotool to create any demo, ever.
You can argue "but you're using SDL!" or "but you're using FMOD!" but those I use because the one thing they do for me is keep in control with the devices and keeps my code portable. And I wanna code demos&apps, not drivers...
I'm not saying I've pulled of any demos that shaked the world or anything, but at least I have my own code, and I'm not going to use a demotool to create any demo, ever.
You can argue "but you're using SDL!" or "but you're using FMOD!" but those I use because the one thing they do for me is keep in control with the devices and keeps my code portable. And I wanna code demos&apps, not drivers...
gargaj: Wow, so where did you get all your tools from? :)
thec, i agree, using someone else's tool is quite useless, but using your own is somethign totally different, anyone who has been writing a demo authoring tool know it's far harder to make then a demo.
who has been writing a demo authoring tool know it's far harder to make then a demo
and it's even more harder to make a demo with it, i might add :DD
and it's even more harder to make a demo with it, i might add :DD
It's hard to keep track of every aspect of a production when you don't have a team for instance.
Demomakers are great tools for artists. They can concentrate on what they actually can do -- art.
I don't see the point why not using demotools. People who argue like "i wanna do it all by myself" seem to forget that they actually use 3rd party code as well. (was this a muh-point?)
I don't say it's wrong to make something from scratch, but you get better results when you pick an existing well working framework and work with that one instead (to stay in time).
Look at the games-industry, lots of developers use the same engines whatever. It makes things just easier and saves time. Plus, you don't actually have to fiddle around with all the 'low level' stuff, you can concentrate on the "real production" whatever.
Just my opinion :)
Demomakers are great tools for artists. They can concentrate on what they actually can do -- art.
I don't see the point why not using demotools. People who argue like "i wanna do it all by myself" seem to forget that they actually use 3rd party code as well. (was this a muh-point?)
I don't say it's wrong to make something from scratch, but you get better results when you pick an existing well working framework and work with that one instead (to stay in time).
Look at the games-industry, lots of developers use the same engines whatever. It makes things just easier and saves time. Plus, you don't actually have to fiddle around with all the 'low level' stuff, you can concentrate on the "real production" whatever.
Just my opinion :)
hm...
comparing game industry and demo making is a bit odd imho. in games the artwork is about 90%. additionally realizing a game costs a *lot* of money, whereas demo making is just for fun...
so, licensing a game engine is very reasonable, since programming an own engine usually costs more than licensing an existing one.
for demos, there are no costs...
programming is an essential part of demos imo, it's what demos started all about. demo=demonstration of what can be done. this includes art, yes. but a major component is the code itself.
so using some tool is just not the same league.
comparing that to using own demotools is not really fair, since those demotools have to be written, you have written the whole engine that lies beneath the demotool, etc.
so: i definitely vote for a separate category for paja/wz/whatever
and that does *not* include demos done with you own tools
comparing game industry and demo making is a bit odd imho. in games the artwork is about 90%. additionally realizing a game costs a *lot* of money, whereas demo making is just for fun...
so, licensing a game engine is very reasonable, since programming an own engine usually costs more than licensing an existing one.
for demos, there are no costs...
programming is an essential part of demos imo, it's what demos started all about. demo=demonstration of what can be done. this includes art, yes. but a major component is the code itself.
so using some tool is just not the same league.
comparing that to using own demotools is not really fair, since those demotools have to be written, you have written the whole engine that lies beneath the demotool, etc.
so: i definitely vote for a separate category for paja/wz/whatever
and that does *not* include demos done with you own tools
so: i definitely vote for a separate category for paja/wz/whatever
and that does *not* include demos done with you own tools
what happens to the FR demos then? they are both WZ and selfmade :D
and that does *not* include demos done with you own tools
what happens to the FR demos then? they are both WZ and selfmade :D
1:0 for you ;)
more or less at least...
i wouldn't put fr demos in a wz category...
maybe the category should really be called "tooldemos" or something
i wouldn't put fr demos in a wz category...
maybe the category should really be called "tooldemos" or something
your (squoquo) demos are also tooldemos arent they? at least you have a syncing tool...
yep, but as i said, it's our own tool, we coded it and the whole engine is coded by us (in fact by me ;)
so i think that has nothing to do with wz-made demos
so i think that has nothing to do with wz-made demos
i guess the main problem with paja/wz is not that it's someone's tool, but that it also includes the complete demo engine itself...
if someone would write a demo engine that can interpret wz-files correctly and then use wz to do demos with this engine there would be no problem with me...
if someone would write a demo engine that can interpret wz-files correctly and then use wz to do demos with this engine there would be no problem with me...
This can be a real pain when it come to "no I coded the demotool so the production must not be put in a demotool creation section", but I can understand that argue -- I would do so too.
But imo ... either all productions created with such tools go into a demomaker creation section or none. Everything else would be unfair I guess, how ever, it's unfair anyway.
Personally I wouldn't change anything on it. Leave the demomaker demos where they are and voilá ;)
But imo ... either all productions created with such tools go into a demomaker creation section or none. Everything else would be unfair I guess, how ever, it's unfair anyway.
Personally I wouldn't change anything on it. Leave the demomaker demos where they are and voilá ;)
So much talk for so little. Let people use whatever they want to create stuff and judge the stuff by the audiovisual output.
this discussion is even more pointless than the "is it okay to use mp3s in demos, even though mp3 isn't a scene format"-debate 5 years ago.
If you have your fun making demos with someone else's tools it's just your problem. It might sound outdated, but I still like the good old creation steps:
- have the idea;
- tell your coders;
- get dissed/bashed/laughed at;
- try again until they force you to join another group
- have the idea;
- tell your coders;
- get dissed/bashed/laughed at;
- try again until they force you to join another group
ryg: possibly, but I we have been reading "are tooldemos a scene thing?"-kinda topics since RedSector Demomaker and people still code their on tools.
the idea with a prefix or something like that, as "wrkz" or something like that is not bad, something like a unspoken rule.
a own category is imho also not a bad thing, but not needed.
because demotools are "static", you can do a lots of stuff, but there is no "kick ass" - technical breaktrough and they make coders unnescessary.
those things make the scene difficult for newcomers (in this case coders).
demopaja i another thing, cuz afaik you can do your own code (*.dlls etc?).
you can do nice design stuff and such with demomakers, okay, but was the scene about makeing cool design?
a own category is imho also not a bad thing, but not needed.
because demotools are "static", you can do a lots of stuff, but there is no "kick ass" - technical breaktrough and they make coders unnescessary.
those things make the scene difficult for newcomers (in this case coders).
demopaja i another thing, cuz afaik you can do your own code (*.dlls etc?).
you can do nice design stuff and such with demomakers, okay, but was the scene about makeing cool design?
ryg: Wow, thats a broken analogy..
Looking at this topic from a party organizer's perspective, I can really see no good reasons for creating a separate category for tooldemos.
Any demo created today uses third party components to some extent. Whetever it is libs, directx/openGL, or something fancier like a demo engine or even a demo framework (e.g. Demopaja).
.Werkkzeug just took this is a little bit further. It will not remove the need for self-coded effects, ingenuity, innovation, hard work or other essential elements of good demos.
Go wz and go self-coding. Do your thing and do it well.
Any demo created today uses third party components to some extent. Whetever it is libs, directx/openGL, or something fancier like a demo engine or even a demo framework (e.g. Demopaja).
.Werkkzeug just took this is a little bit further. It will not remove the need for self-coded effects, ingenuity, innovation, hard work or other essential elements of good demos.
Go wz and go self-coding. Do your thing and do it well.
