10th Annual Scene.org Awards - Public Choice voting
category: general [glöplog]
i think my favourite part of the discussion so far is either plek's insult in the style of the drunken master, or ted's surprising boob remark and jessika's swift reply :D
not removing razor from the nominations when they ask for it is just total asshattery.
there are directors who have refused to be nominated for oscars, for fucks sake, why would scene.org be so holy that they can refuse to listen to the people who made the production?
it really does look like you only want to keep razor 1911 there because you have a personal wish to humiliate them. your attitude is just disgusting.
there are directors who have refused to be nominated for oscars, for fucks sake, why would scene.org be so holy that they can refuse to listen to the people who made the production?
it really does look like you only want to keep razor 1911 there because you have a personal wish to humiliate them. your attitude is just disgusting.
Tomoya :D
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ok so if publics choice != jurys choice, is it ok or not ok to inform our fans on our webpage and social networks about the vote or is that not in line with the jurys choice?
the answer to that would be clearly a NO from my side.
because i always took the "public choice" award as an actual "sceners choice" award in the sense that all DEMOSCENERS can choose their favorite production of the year.
In other words instead of a number of jury members (15-20, which you can also apply for every year) who of course have a certain taste themselves, you can have like the ultimate vote from all DEMOSCENERS. the fact that you need a sceneid to vote should make that pretty clear.
now if anyone is going down the road of informing people to vote for their production via social networks and the like it is pretty obvious that the public choice award is going down the drain when it comes to reliability of the vote outcome.
because most of all its gonna be like this:
"i dont have the slightest clue about demoscene, i also dont care, but i know INSERTGROUPORPERSONOFYOURCHOICEHERE from somewhere and i just do what they ask me for"
i dont know if you find that ok, i certainly dont.
also +1 for nosfe.
if anyone doesnt want to be among the nominees, why not simply remove them?
but putting that all aside, a little scenedrama once in a while is not the worst thing to have :)
gopher, it should be named 'scener's choice' and not public choice then.
the way i see it, of a group is popular enough to gather votes from the public then it is that by just reasons and where ever the votes come from should be ok.
if not, then the vote profiles should be clearly defined and there should be precise followup on who can vote and who can't.
to me the jury process of the scene.org awards is the 'sceners choice' already.
the way i see it, of a group is popular enough to gather votes from the public then it is that by just reasons and where ever the votes come from should be ok.
if not, then the vote profiles should be clearly defined and there should be precise followup on who can vote and who can't.
to me the jury process of the scene.org awards is the 'sceners choice' already.
nosfe: the publics choice was introduced because a lot of sceners did NOT like the jurys choice if I remember correctly.
I pretty much agree with what gopher wrote here in connection with my beforementioned dislike of the votefaking/namevoting attitude.
I pretty much agree with what gopher wrote here in connection with my beforementioned dislike of the votefaking/namevoting attitude.
puryx, if the intention is that only active sceners should be able to vote, then it should be clearly made impossible for others to vote. make a limit of 500 glöbs gathered during last year or something for the possibility to vote.
anyway, as i've never been nominated for scene.org awards, i don't know about this: does scene.org actually make any kind of contract/agreement with the groups they take in to the competition, or do they just announce groups that are there and
then tell them to fuck off if they don't want to be part of the awards?
anyway, as i've never been nominated for scene.org awards, i don't know about this: does scene.org actually make any kind of contract/agreement with the groups they take in to the competition, or do they just announce groups that are there and
then tell them to fuck off if they don't want to be part of the awards?
"Democracy, yes! But only for people I personally see fit!" ;)
salinga, yeah, everyone can vote except those who are not good enough
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does scene.org actually make any kind of contract/agreement with the groups they take in to the competition, or do they just announce groups that are there and
then tell them to fuck off if they don't want to be part of the awards?
yeah, that's pretty much how i saw it boil down. not that there's a problem with that, being nominated should be taken as a good thing. (mostly.) (hi bonzaj ;)
Britelite: I think trying to score with any number of guys higher than one from the same pool over a short time span makes anyone a slut, really.. But that's not for this thread, this thread has a different scene drama!
Wow, 2 people in a span of over 12 years.. would love to see the words to describe others.. ;)
leijaa: well, we might have different views on what's considered "trying to score with any number of guys". I've heard the same shit about pretty much every girl visiting a party and talking to more than 3 guys there...
the thing is, and i'd love to see this answered by rez/dubmood, assuming that other groups don't promote their prods being voted for (and as far as i can see asd, flt, etc dont do that), wouldnt you consider that a level playing field?
screw that i want to see boobs!!
or to rephrase, what DO you consider a level playing field, or do you even prefer one?
Jessika: Don't worry, I'm talking about Matt, not you, he went all down on Giles in the toilet that one night!
Straight questions... Let me try to give you some straight answers...
That is not OK. This falls into the category of "Advertising the award with an implicit suggestion on who to vote for", which is prohibited by the voting guidelines.
Namevoting is part of the game. If someone thinks your production is awesome because it was made by you, that is their opinion, which they are perfectly entitled to have.
Fine with me. But I cannot guarantee anything about how other people will react to such jokes.
I am not sure which kind of bias you are suggesting. Every member of the jury of course has his own opinions and preferences. We try to balance the composition of the jury with respect to background (code, music, graphics), platform experience and nationality.
The only sure way not to be nominated is to not produce anything. Given that you did produce something, then if you are convinced that nobody in their right mind would prefer your production, do not advertise the vote to people who might be inclined to cast their vote without taking such preference into account.
For the situation at hand, I don't think you can do more than ask nicely, which you already did.
A few other things to clarify:
- The awards nominations are expressions of opinion (of the jury or the voters). The fact that you authored the object of the opinion does not entitle you to regulate the expression of that opinion (except in special cases, such as slander, which do not apply here). This is called freedom of speech.
- The Public Choice award is not a competition. It is a public poll. It is governed by guidelines, not rules. Like all polls, it is only meaningful if all who are asked reply honestly and fairly.
- The demoscene is a small community. For the Public Choice award, we get only a few hundred votes. It is easy for anyone to manipulate the result substantially merely by being selective about who they inform about the award (hence the "implicit" in the guideline mentioned above). The only thing they achieve by doing so is to reduce the value of the award as an expression of public opinion (and the public drama, of course).
If you don't want to win the award, be sure not to tell your friends about the second round. It is that simple.
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ok so if publics choice != jurys choice, is it ok or not ok to inform our fans on our webpage and social networks about the vote or is that not in line with the jurys choice?
That is not OK. This falls into the category of "Advertising the award with an implicit suggestion on who to vote for", which is prohibited by the voting guidelines.
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and do we need to have a groupname that is unknown to the public outside the closest friends of the jury to be sure that we are not getting any namevotes ?
Namevoting is part of the game. If someone thinks your production is awesome because it was made by you, that is their opinion, which they are perfectly entitled to have.
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if we in the end get namevotes anyhow, are we allowed to joke about the fact that we do or is this not in line with the jurys thought of what can cause embarasment outside the demoscene?
Fine with me. But I cannot guarantee anything about how other people will react to such jokes.
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and last: is there any possibility that the jury might be biased? I can't find anything about it in the FAQ so I thought it would be best to ask.
I am not sure which kind of bias you are suggesting. Every member of the jury of course has his own opinions and preferences. We try to balance the composition of the jury with respect to background (code, music, graphics), platform experience and nationality.
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If the semi-decent democoder and the juvenileshithead musician want to have their prods removed from the competition, what is the best way of doing so? do we really need to winnuke95 the sceneawards server?
The only sure way not to be nominated is to not produce anything. Given that you did produce something, then if you are convinced that nobody in their right mind would prefer your production, do not advertise the vote to people who might be inclined to cast their vote without taking such preference into account.
For the situation at hand, I don't think you can do more than ask nicely, which you already did.
A few other things to clarify:
- The awards nominations are expressions of opinion (of the jury or the voters). The fact that you authored the object of the opinion does not entitle you to regulate the expression of that opinion (except in special cases, such as slander, which do not apply here). This is called freedom of speech.
- The Public Choice award is not a competition. It is a public poll. It is governed by guidelines, not rules. Like all polls, it is only meaningful if all who are asked reply honestly and fairly.
- The demoscene is a small community. For the Public Choice award, we get only a few hundred votes. It is easy for anyone to manipulate the result substantially merely by being selective about who they inform about the award (hence the "implicit" in the guideline mentioned above). The only thing they achieve by doing so is to reduce the value of the award as an expression of public opinion (and the public drama, of course).
If you don't want to win the award, be sure not to tell your friends about the second round. It is that simple.
getting back to this,
dubmood: personally i think we've avoided this criticism because unlike some of the other "reformed cracking group demosections" we continue the line by embracing the oldschool _spirit_ of the scene - pushing limits stylistically and technically - not just copying the style 20 years later. fairlight's demo section continues to develop the label and push it to new audiences. razor's starting to do that too in recent years, so congrats for that.
back to the matter at hand. you could say that fairlight is in a similar position to razor, in that thanks to our status in multiple scenes and our history (and the number of hits on our website domains) we probably have enough followers to massively influence the public's choice vote - if we wanted to.
the reason i wouldnt want to ever do that is that my personal choice is that i'd like to one day win this award knowing that it was purely bceause enough people - hardcore sceners or not - liked the demos enough to sign in and press the button. i dont want to ask anyone to vote for us because it would cheapen the win, if it ever comes, for me personally.
but it's a public vote, so if people want to try and win by asking for votes then that's their perogative - it's not really any different from the various sceners ive seen asking people on facebook to vote for them in various online music or graphics contests. to me it's a matter of personal honour not to do that, not a matter of rules (which are surely certain to be broken on one level or another - be it a massvote from a particular platform's scene, a particular country etc).
we're all in the same scene here and the only prize at stake is a statue. ditch the rules, go with honour, keep the pride.
meanwhile,
props for one of the more magnificent pieces of thread derailment ive seen recently, but i'll bite:
when someone calls someone else a slut - quite a strong word in the liberated, equal opportunities 2010s - i usually take it as a statement of one of the following about the person calling it out:
- they're feeling threatened: "they're gonna steal my man / status / attention!"
- they're feeling their ego is dented: "they seem to want anyone! except for me.. (emo tear)"
- they know for a fact the person actually has racked up the numbers to lend some legitimacy to the tagline.
i cant help thinking that the first two cases are driving a lot of the words ive seen thrown about in the last few days, which is a statement on people in this scene more than it is on the person in question, sadly. is a good looking girl with a bit of attitude really that frightening? :)
also here's a tip - if you're afraid of seeing cleavage, best stay clear of sunrise demoparty - luton on a saturday night will scare the living shit out of you. :)
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smash: is it me or do you guys never have to take the same shit when it comes to "cracking group names"?
why I don't see people go after new rebels, trsi or new skidrow on this subject? no offense to rebels and trsi btw.
dubmood: personally i think we've avoided this criticism because unlike some of the other "reformed cracking group demosections" we continue the line by embracing the oldschool _spirit_ of the scene - pushing limits stylistically and technically - not just copying the style 20 years later. fairlight's demo section continues to develop the label and push it to new audiences. razor's starting to do that too in recent years, so congrats for that.
back to the matter at hand. you could say that fairlight is in a similar position to razor, in that thanks to our status in multiple scenes and our history (and the number of hits on our website domains) we probably have enough followers to massively influence the public's choice vote - if we wanted to.
the reason i wouldnt want to ever do that is that my personal choice is that i'd like to one day win this award knowing that it was purely bceause enough people - hardcore sceners or not - liked the demos enough to sign in and press the button. i dont want to ask anyone to vote for us because it would cheapen the win, if it ever comes, for me personally.
but it's a public vote, so if people want to try and win by asking for votes then that's their perogative - it's not really any different from the various sceners ive seen asking people on facebook to vote for them in various online music or graphics contests. to me it's a matter of personal honour not to do that, not a matter of rules (which are surely certain to be broken on one level or another - be it a massvote from a particular platform's scene, a particular country etc).
we're all in the same scene here and the only prize at stake is a statue. ditch the rules, go with honour, keep the pride.
meanwhile,
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The story goes like this:
"Woman runs around at a party, showing her boobs to everybody, then acts surprised/insulted when people call her a slut afterwards"
props for one of the more magnificent pieces of thread derailment ive seen recently, but i'll bite:
when someone calls someone else a slut - quite a strong word in the liberated, equal opportunities 2010s - i usually take it as a statement of one of the following about the person calling it out:
- they're feeling threatened: "they're gonna steal my man / status / attention!"
- they're feeling their ego is dented: "they seem to want anyone! except for me.. (emo tear)"
- they know for a fact the person actually has racked up the numbers to lend some legitimacy to the tagline.
i cant help thinking that the first two cases are driving a lot of the words ive seen thrown about in the last few days, which is a statement on people in this scene more than it is on the person in question, sadly. is a good looking girl with a bit of attitude really that frightening? :)
also here's a tip - if you're afraid of seeing cleavage, best stay clear of sunrise demoparty - luton on a saturday night will scare the living shit out of you. :)
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As far as I can tell he does not object to people liking his production, but to having it in the awards. Those two things are not the same, so your argument does not hold up.
In this context, they are exactly the same thing. The Award in this case is that Scene.org gives you a statue as a result of a public poll. If you do not want to recieve that award, that's perfectly fine, but since Public Choice is not defined by a jury, you cannot "remove yourself from being liked" -- especially not since you took an active part in promoting your own prod as one of those liked. So no, the argument is not flawed and does indeed hold up.
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See above, plus what Blueberry said.How about the right to control the use of his own creation? Or did you suddenly stop believing in that?
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A bad example, since Public Choice is not part of the jury decision, thus it falls outside the traditional work of the Scene.org Awards.there are directors who have refused to be nominated for oscars, for fucks sake, why would scene.org be so holy that they can refuse to listen to the people who made the production?
I'm more interested in seeing those tits?
maytz: well, then you shouldn't have "ditched" Revision ;)
Hmmm.
gloom, blueberry: I hear what you're saying, but I think there's a grey area here, it's not all absolutes.
Let me make up two examples:
a) The US Republican party decides to give out an award for 'Best Patriotic Music', in a process that clearly furthers their political/PR agenda. Should liberal musicians be allowed to opt out?
b) A female singer-songwriter tragically loses her 3-year old son, killed by a drunk driver. Later that year she's nominated as 'MTVs best female performer of 2012'. One month before the awards show, the CEO of MTV and the host of the show get insanely drunk together, get in a car, and kill a 4-year old girl while going 150km/h. Naturally, this devastates our singer-song writer all over again, and she wants nothing to do with MTV. Should she be allowed to cancel her nomination on this basis?
Now, none of this is meant to apply to the current situation. My point is that there's always a grey zone where you're an asshole if you don't allow people to remove themselves from your awards.
I'm sure any technical issues for removing rez could be solved, so the only remaining question is:
Is the beef that Rez has with the awards big enough to remove him from the running?
This we can debate, but from my POV it's a definite yes; yes he has. If he wants out, you should let him.
gloom, blueberry: I hear what you're saying, but I think there's a grey area here, it's not all absolutes.
Let me make up two examples:
a) The US Republican party decides to give out an award for 'Best Patriotic Music', in a process that clearly furthers their political/PR agenda. Should liberal musicians be allowed to opt out?
b) A female singer-songwriter tragically loses her 3-year old son, killed by a drunk driver. Later that year she's nominated as 'MTVs best female performer of 2012'. One month before the awards show, the CEO of MTV and the host of the show get insanely drunk together, get in a car, and kill a 4-year old girl while going 150km/h. Naturally, this devastates our singer-song writer all over again, and she wants nothing to do with MTV. Should she be allowed to cancel her nomination on this basis?
Now, none of this is meant to apply to the current situation. My point is that there's always a grey zone where you're an asshole if you don't allow people to remove themselves from your awards.
I'm sure any technical issues for removing rez could be solved, so the only remaining question is:
Is the beef that Rez has with the awards big enough to remove him from the running?
This we can debate, but from my POV it's a definite yes; yes he has. If he wants out, you should let him.
leia: nono, ive got standards - i turned him down, but then he started posting nasty rumours about me on irc :(
revival said it right.
scene awards should be something to celebrate works made in the scene, now it seems that the attitude of scene.org staff is that they want to use the awards to insult some really talented and active sceners.
also
ok, i gotta book flights to uk
scene awards should be something to celebrate works made in the scene, now it seems that the attitude of scene.org staff is that they want to use the awards to insult some really talented and active sceners.
also
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also here's a tip - if you're afraid of seeing cleavage, best stay clear of sunrise demoparty - luton on a saturday night will scare the living shit out of you. :)
ok, i gotta book flights to uk