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..and we'll never be able to fix this, since music has a low entry point but requires a high degree of knowledge to do well. PA is particularily problematic, even for experienced musicians. Which is why you have don't just turn on the PA-system before the music compo and leave the slider at 0 dB, but instead keep someone who know what they are doing at the mixing-desk to "curate" the music during compos. Luckily for Solskogen and Kindergarden, we have this guy:

Exactly! That's one of the reasons those two parties are among my favorites for releasing my executable music entries ;-)

[qoute]Why hasn't someone created a PA VST plugin or plugin for some mp3-player, that mimicks the frequency response of an avarage PA-system?[/qoute]

It's a good idea, but AFAIR from the little research I did on this, not exactly trivial. It's not just about the frequency response (then you could do it with a sufficiently capable EQ), there are all kinds of interdependent stuff going on with the dynamics.

And when things gets complicated, that's where coders take over ;-)

(fun to see how you managed to be consistant in mistyping 'quote') :D

There's one thing I've always wondered. Sometimes in a club or somewhere with extremely loud sound, it seems distorted as hell despite a high-end PA, big mixing desk and normally decent sounding music. Is that distortion coming from the speakers/amps/whatever, or is it hitting some kind of volume limit of the human ear?

psonice: usually it's somewhere in the signal-chain and not your ears. Remember that clubs usually have their master PA amps set up with a long list of compressors, limiters and EQ to "shield" the actual speakers from being wrecked by over-enthusiastic (and clueless) DJs and perfomers. When those performers then use their $120 DJ-mixer to boost both the output signal gain ("To make it louder!") and EQ ("To make the bass go whoop-whoop!"), things start to go to shit. :)

It actually involved something like that when I first lost my hearing at a trance party, . "You know" I was told later, "most trance DJs like to play with the bass knob to the max" :) Maybe to get that extra-phasiness !

I don't know much about sound techniques and so on, but at TRSAC we did keep mad DJ sets and large raves to a minimum on friday specifically to make people able to concentrate for friday nights last ditch efforts to produce something. I'm not sure anyone noticed, but for me it's a valid concern that people are trying to be creative while some drunk bastard is trying to blow their head off with his PA :)

Maybe something like that could be (part) of a solution? we did play music on friday, only we didn't do so very loud (ie. you could talk in a loud voice and still be heard if you weren't next to the speakers)

psonice/gloom: I think that depends on the person. For me, music at demoscene levels sounds very distortet. If I wear earplugs, the music sounds much better to me.

If parties are too loud, then for the sake of your health, please stay at home. This will also cease such kind of complaints.
And now let's shift over to those complaining about porn being watched at parties, or about the wrong brand of table-water being sold.

yes yes nic0, and on Saturday, we headbanged

Well, yes and no. You're talking about your own comfort level, while I'm talking about the actual audio. While it might be percieved as "distorted" or loud to you, it might not do that to someone else. The element that the party organizers CAN control is the signal-path and the treatment of the audio, as well as the PA soundlevels.

Actually, I've also noticed that when audio this loud sounds distorted it becomes clearer. That suggests it's my ears hitting the stops and not the speakers. Or does low volume audio that's pre-distorted sound better like that too?

I think either way, that kind of audio level is way too high. The risk of ear damage is high, for the reward of music you can't hear enough to enjoy, while you're fucking up your throat screaming in somebody's ear and they can't hear you anyway.

Well, anyway, it's like everything else. A lot = good, too much = bad.

psonice: Your ears ability to detect details and distinguish parts of the music from other parts become impared as the volume goes up. This is why most musicians mix on very sensible sound-levels. When everything is loud, it tricks you into thinking it sounds better. With regards to pre-distorted sound, it might very well come of as "better" if it's loud, though it would of course depend on what type and degree of distortion we're talking about. Most often than not though: shit in = shit out.

gloom: I think you missed my point there with the distorted sound. I mean when it's extremely loud, it sounds badly distorted (like it's playing through too-small speakers which are hitting the stops), but if I cover my ears it sounds less distorted. My ears feel like they're going past their limits somehow too. Thinking about it, the right term is probably 'clipping' rather than distortion.

But does artificially clipped audio sound better with covered ears? Covering your ears probably works like a low-pass filter, so it possibly does.

Distortion (unless filtered afterwards) typically add more treble, which makes it brighter. Done right it gives the mix more "air" and clarity, done wrong it makes the mix sound like a buzz saw inside your head.

A mix that is heavy on the treble will sound ok at low volume, and ear splitting on high volume. Bass don't pierce the ears in the same (perceived) way at high volume, but when it does (and I mean the bass frequencies, not the distorted high end of a typical drum and bass bassline) it's time to run for the fucking hills before your eardrum bursts.


A couple of quick facts:
1. earplugs will protect you against high sound pressure regardless of frequency. It is an actual barrier between the sound source and your eardrum. While I guess it's technically possible to damage your ears via the nose/mouth (who are connected to your ear canals), I suspect your eyeballs would pop out way before this becomes a problem.

2. Sleep deprivation, stress, caffeine or nicotine will not cause tinnitus, but it can amplify the effects of it (meaning that if you are tired the tinnitus will seem more bothersome).

It's depending on what you cover your ears with, but yes. In principle it's the same as hearing music from your neighbors through a wall/floor/ceiling.
Low frequencies travel better through material than high frequencies, meaning that while the overall sound will be dampened high frequencies will be more dampened than lower frequencies.
Your body is also capable of sensing sound through your body, which is one reason that chest thumping sound levels make bass feel more immersive (will also work for treble, but you need the signal source more close to the body. Soviet scientists made experiments proving that you could sense sounds above frequencies you could normally hear if the sound source was pressed onto your skull).

Possible explanation: poorly fitted / bad quality earplugs might actually increase bass (!?)

i really miss the days of mid-90s when the sound at parties WAS really loud. no party in last 10 years has been anywhere close to parties like asm95.

wait guys, girls... girls... it's not a demoparty.

nosfe: it is, you just lost 40dB since then. :-p

OK, some people go to demopartys to meet friends and would like to be able to talk with them.
Others need to do some partycoding to be able to release a demo.

Is there actually a good reason to have a sound level that makes conversation impossible between compos?
Sure, there are a few people who would prefer to get drunk as hell and sleep in their own vomit but I fail to see how a reasonable sound level prevents this.

maybe there are also some people who go to demoparties to listen to f.e. the great tunes being played on the brüllwürfel? ever thought of that?

..which is actually how we plan to have the music compos at Solskogen 2011.