pouët.net

daxx ... you misunderstood something.

I've donated €50. I think it's one of the few demoscene projects outside of parties that you can point people to and say "here, look at this, it's great!" without having to worry about what they're going to think with respect to the flaming.

Don't get me wrong - pouet is great, a fantastic resource for finding demos and downloading them, with a rough indication of how you're going to like/dislike them, but when I just want to show someone a demo, I'll always point them to demoscene.tv, and introduce them to one of the channels. I don't really use the "live streaming" aspect, but I can see how foreigners to a particular party would see the benefit, and maybe that will inspire them to go to a party.

I don't live/breathe/drink demos 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and so I miss a great deal of what happens at other parties. When I'm doing something about would like to use my second monitor to show videos whilst I work, I invariably search for a party on demoscene.tv, click "play demos" and make it fullscreen. It's fantastic. It's not just "Youtube for demos" it's a playlist generator and makes me watch *more* demos. It's inspirational, and I wholeheartedly thank metapat et al for all the work they put into it, even if they just put that cash into a beerfund. I seriously doubt much of my donation will go into a beerfund, but I'd like to think that next time I see Andre, Patrick etc, I'll buy them a beer and say thanks for a wonderful resource.

[quote=daxx]
39600 Euros for employee ? And he did 5 years a good job ?

That is: 198.000 Euros for him... I think he earned a nice budget for creating a site running... Say "Thank you" to him and kick him out...

Problem solved.
[/quote]

Lol.

i was wondering the same, why employ someone for doing.. nothing ?
when site is running, the only thing you need is 2/3 "moderators" who update news and post things etc. for free. you have a staff right ? with Metapat, Bunny etc..

lol i just saw this message @ dodc, and i admit i laughed behind my comp a few seconds :p

i don't really like metapat either haha ^^

but well, even if he's proud of him, and have a crap accent, he was doing a good work, and DTV staff was doing a nice work too, i couldn't come to those last 2 years parties, and i was happy i could watch them from my computer @ home. but anyways, it was kinda useless watching a room wih people talking each other behind their comps..

DTV is great, but some people asked if it was really "needed".
this is a good question in fact

it's cool to watch a stream.. but what does it provide ? nothing except watching the demos "live" on the bigscreen with audience behind. that's ALL. rest of the time ? you watch the steam at any hour, all you see is people talking to each other behind their comps, people sleeping, just a lil bit of noise, and that's all.

maybe it should be improved with something else.

daXX:
Being yourself one of the biggest loser on earth, I'd shut the fuck up if I was you.
You judge what's been said with written numbers, not taking in case that what they've done helped a fucking BIG shitload of sceners. And I'm sure you were the first one (since you never _ever_ move to parties) to watch DTV live.
Tsr (as well as metapat, who's been judged as well in that thread) has made a shitload of good work, and really deserves the money he's been given monthly.
I'll though ask your boss to say thanks to you and to solve the real problem. Maybe will it help your company.

As for what Dax wrote, quite sad not to have any more DTV live party coverages. Really sad even.
What will happen with Numerica Artparty btw?

daxx: 1700 euros net a month is not a big fat paycheck.

Sorry guy if it came a bit rude. But why should he pay for future 1700 euros net a month ? I can not understand that. DTV doesn't look for me like that much work...

What is about Gargaj ? He's doing a great job too here on pouet ? Who's paying him ?

What is about Alien^BF and his Moderators doing that much stuff for you on Bitfellas ? Who's paying them ?

Or H2o for doing so much Websites for Demopartys, Banners for you etc. Who's paying him ?

What is about all the other sites like Exotica, B2TR, Amp.dascene etc remix64, amigaremix etc etc ! I really could understand the fee of servertraffics and the other costs.. but 39k for a employee sounds a bit strange for me... Even when he's a good guy and doing a nice job.. It IS TO much.

And irokos...
I didn't insult you here so why do you insult me now ? You could really try to argue a bit more objectively instead of insulting other...

..which is why you should probably stop making blunt statements. Since you don't know what work is being done, you are in no position to comment on whether or not that work is being over-paid for. I feel Dax gave us all a pretty good overview (albeit a tad french-bitchy :) of how DTV is being run and their expenses. Keeping beating the "But but! Nobody pays <PERSON X> to run <SITE Y>!"-horse just seems ignorant at this point.

that employee rolled DTV .. :)

gloom.. i didn't said that Dax made a bad overview... You just pick up what you want to comment and didn't answer on following questions like who's paying all the other sceners which doing jobs every day...

do you really wanna tell me, that this employee is working 8 hours/day on DTV non-stop ? every day? full time? sorry... i have to lol about...

and how you said so fine... i'm not knowing what work is ... i do websites every day .. have my little company running and i know how much work it is.. but even netto he earned 102.000 euros for make a site running...

How Frenchlion said... What they need is a freelancer Moderators. maybe they can pay them something.. when jobs coming on but not each month 1700 euros...

I didn't say you did - I simply said that your comments gave the impression that you didn't read what he wrote.

Yes, I comment what I want to comment - correct. :)

Was that a question? Anyway; yes, I did. See my last sentence in the post above.

I never said he did. Also, as people have stated already, the pay this person recieves is not overwhelming in any way.

Good luck with your "argument" there. I never said you "not knowing what work is". I said that since you don't know what work that person is doing, you're in no position to comment on it. Meaning: he might do a lot, he might do little - you don't know.

Did he? Again: you don't know what task this person is charged with. You make assumptions, again and again.. Oh, and multiplying his yearly salary with 5 and going "OMG! THAT'S ALOT!" is just plain stupid.

Perhaps. You don't know.

Daxx, the unpaid volunteer model works when you have students in your staff. Have you never wondered why scene.org is not constantly being updated with features or why the awards these past two years were in jeopardy?

daXX's comparison to Gargaj, Alien etc is a valid one - not because we want to turn this into a who's-done-most-for-the-scene contest or insist that everyone should work for free, but because there is nothing so freaking awesome about what tsr has done that the scene should rush to his aid to keep his full-time job afloat.

In my opinion DTV have made the right decision by dropping the full-time post. If the job can't pay for itself, either by directly bringing in income or by demonstrating enough public good to the scene to persuade enough people to support it financially, then it should go. No need to get sentimental about it, and *certainly* no need for Dax to try and guilt-trip us with a "you heartless bastards, after everything he's done for the scene..." lecture.

Who said something about completly unpaid? But not fix summs each month for sitting 7 hours / day on the ass and working 1 hour maybe... But really..

They'll find a way i'm sure...

I never care much about DTV cauz i've use it 20 minutes in 5 Years... 20 Minutes watching Breakpoint "Live" which looks like a webcam streaming a room full of computers. Wasn't very interesting for me :)

I'll leave this discussion now. It's useless.

daxx and co, i really don't see the problem. DTV managed to gain good public funding for turning the site and the videos into really cool stuff. admit it, the site is awesome. isn't all that just great? isn't it just wonderful if you can get enough funding as a non-profit organisation to employ someone full time?

and who are you then to tell DTV that tsr, paid for by the French tax payers and definitely not by you, didn't do good enough a job?

i mean, politically, i too think that paying someone full time from tax money to do DTV is a bit odd - i'm too right wing for this kind of stuff; i feel a lot of art-stuff is over-subsidised anyway. but the DTV guys arranged it, the French governments agreed to it, and that's it! from then on it's just great that someone's been paid to do well what hobbyists in their evening hours would do slowly and sometimes sloppily. plastic got paid to do linger in shadows, i don't really see the problem with that either.

of course, once the money flow stops, it's difficult to keep that person employed - which is why it had to end. that's sad, but that's how it works, so i'm happy that DTV had the guts to send one of their on a job search. that must've been pretty difficult to do.

really, i don't understand what you're complaining about.

*to send one of their own on a job-search

gasman, i see your point, but think about it this way: would you do it? would you give up a "normal" job to work, on your own, in an empty office, for 5 years on making a cool website, encoding tons of videos, cutting movies, instead of being where you are right now and building a career? i'm sure that some other opportunities would've allowed tsr to build a better cv and get a bigger income. he clearly has good skills on many levels and when he started this, the job market was screaming for skilled it people.

sure, it's still work and he got paid so it's not much of a sacrifice he made, but i do see the point in underlining what this guy's invested in the scene. it was paid for, but he still gave his life, instead of some evening hours.

people who've worked long at a particular company are celebrated too. a team that makes a month of over hours to make an important deadline is celebrated. why can't we celebrate a guy who's spent 5 years working for the demoscene? i'm not saying we should pay for it (quite the contrary), but can't we applaud?

at least i can. tsr: *applaud!* good luck finding a nice new job!

skrebbel.. ok before it get indistinct i'll explain why i wrote here...

I think, before the scene donate again for someones job, we all have to think about first to all the other guys which spending much time in demoscene... Is that so bad?

Last week i donate €20 for a demoscene site too.. Ok, it's not much at all but i did and i will do it next month again... But i can not dontate each site because there's someone in employment. It sounds so forced for me like "If you want use DTV then donate" ... I would donate if i use it regularly but i don't. And i think there lot of other sceners don't using DTV too.

Finaly. If the employee is important for DTV, they have to find out ways to finance it without the hope of much donations. When sponsors stopped the cooperation then it wasn't interesting enough for them to sponsor it. i'm right ?

So:

There're 3 ways solving the Problem of DTV then...

1. Save money and it can only saved on the employee.. its always the first step by each company.

2. Getting money for the service and let it cost for everyone...

3. Find a new Sponsor...

But this 3 ways aren't new for dax/DTV i think. I'm sure, that he already though about.

i mostly agree on this point.

calculate the time you guys spend on pouet, youtube, and DTV.

i really doubt you spend a lot of time on DTV.

and i also wonder what a guy could do 8 hours a day on the website ? (i don't matter on how much he's paid) i really think the work could be done by volunteers (like daxx said, how are doing gargaj, h2o etc etc.. it's a passion and pleasure for them to work on demoscene stuff/websites and they don't ask a reward).

people could donate (i could) to DTV for hosting etc.. if they want to, but you can't force people in donating on a website they spend 20 minutes per year on.

And here is the new plan for dax/DTV i've though about for you !

1. Step: Employee do now the half job. 4hours/day , half money. If he love the site he did, and wanna help you in that point, he'll understand. Other 4 hours he can do another job to compensate his month-budget.

2. Step: Find a new sponsor and argue with your sitevisits. You can definitely find one who'll be happy about having a 10 seconds advertisement spot before each demo starts. and noone of the sceners will disturb hat advertisement because we all know, its for a good thing. like "powered by Nvidia" or whatever... There're lot of ways and you can do advertisement-spots for more companys and build up a little finance-plan how much the advertise cost .. forexample 10 plays per day = 500 euros / month etc...

3. Step: Watch, what the advertisement-sports give you and recalculate all. Find favorable hosting-partners which give you the servers / traffics etc. for the half price when you do advertisements for them. If you have already partners in that case, talk with them to reduce the price for a good customer like you are.

You have that platform and the users. Now use it smart !

Hope i could help and give some inspirations.

Thank you Daxx for this insightful post that nobody will care about.

daXX: don't talk the talk if you can't (didn't) walk the walk

what said.