pouët.net

I guess I could have quoted this in my post above, just to be clear about which comment I meant :) - but yeah, I do think it's pretty disrespectful. It's just one of those sweeping generalisations, you know? ... like if I were to say that only 4k's push the envelope, and that demos don't - that all demos are made routinely, by people who merely put in the effort without innovation.

I happen to think that's true in a lot of cases, but to claim that it's true of all demos would be an epic fail.

Well, you have to do only a one effect which you then wrap around some small design and crap music and spend time to squeeze it to 4k. In demos you implement new effects and features all the time during the production. Due to larger variation in effects you also have to spend more time to keep the design consistent and coherent because you have more content. Or that's at least how I see it going.

besides, it's not like actuator wasnt done with a commercial engine :)

cool!

pommak: I can't believe how rubbish you are.

or, that is to say: how rubbish your opinion is :)

Alright. So it was really worth it, asking that question, wasn't it?

Very much so - did you not read all the replies?

I've done my fair share of shitty 4ks and 1ks. Never held much respect fro demos (with a few strong exceptions) as their tech was quite low in my oh-so-hedumacated opinion. Then I tried doing a demo (or is that I'm STILL trying after 12 months) and man I gained respect for demo coders. That said, really good 4ks - loadsa hard work, its not something you do well overnight. So demo coders should try it for a while before dissing. If the likes of crinkler, iqs frameworks and alcatraz synths hadnt taken some of the hard work from doing 4ks they would be _really_ hard work.

Problem with demo these days is that they are so insanely complex to even look decent compared to the fine art produced by the big groups that you end up with some mediocre minimalistic stuff rendered with your super-simple engine in comparison that will ruin the "demo experience" for lots of people. I know I'm to blame for this as well since I don't have months to code on a demo, my time counts in hours when I have free time.

Making a 4k I'm sure will be easier in that aspect. Sure it gives other technological challenges but I'm sorry, size coding was never something for _me_ and _I_ don't think the graphics in most 4k's is very appealing. Exception for stuff like yellow rose of texas.

In 64k you can get a lot done but if you're not interested in coding for size well... and there is always the music, I prefer listening to a 256kbit ogg even if there is good exceptions to that as well as some fairlight intros prove :-)

I still have respect for coders that manage to do small things tho, please don't mix that up.

Demos and 4k's - It's kind of like comparing a symphony orchestra to a self-taught guy with a home-whittled flute, y'know?

But it can also be like comparing a crappy high school band with a virtuoso on a violin...

is it time for a car metaphor yet? :O)

farfar:

4K intro: .... A demo:

Both are, at best, extremely cool in their own regard, and I feel the size comparison is almost accurate.

farfar: You're wrong, pommak is right. Get over it.

So, this is some serious sidestepping indeed, but yeah - I have to say that uncle-x has a fucking WIN on his hands with those two pictures. :)

uncle-x: exactly.
kusma: you'll be punished with schnapps at kindergarden!

uncle-x: word

i'm with kusma and pommak and uncle here.



now, first of all, i am NOT going to state that demos always show pushing of envelopes or innovation, but hell neither do 4ks. what i've seen in the 4k field recently is thin wrappers running shaders. dont get me wrong i like the raymarching effects, and it's even better if there's some actual content/tool behind it (candystall for ex.) but calling the even the better 4ks of this year innovative is just a big fat load of BULLSHIT.

once again: lets stop comparing and oh please lets stop using the word 'innovative' as an argument.

and dont get me started about the music in 4ks. with a few exceptions they all make my fucking ears bleed. start innovating on that.

Exactly as you say: let's stop comparing, to which I would add: let's stop generalising.

Make demos not war!

Who gives a shit, a demo's a demo. If it's good it's good, if it's bad it's bad. But then again everyone is entitled to their own opinion as to what is good and bad. :D

big Schaufelradbagger is big