LIBERTARIANISM - THE POLITICAL CONCEPT OF THE FUTURE?
category: general [glöplog]
dodge,
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commies stink
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I'm with El Topo in the issue
in other news, my mailserver is down, which is bloody annoying.
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In the real world, libertarianism works just as well as communism, because like communism, it's based on a flawed perception of how people think and work.
Preacher, why do you think so? I think it's rather the opposite: Libertarians are the only ones who really accept that every human being is different, and that they should be allowed to do what they want, unless they do something that is against the law... Moderate libertarians aren't anarchists, they do want to sustain government institutions enacting and enforcing laws which everybody must stick to, otherwise the government is allowed to punish him/her.
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And worse, it wrongly assumes that all people are born equally fortunate and have equal chances in life,
No, it doesn't.
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which is not the case.
You are right. But as said, libertarians don't assume that, either.
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The most disgusting libertarians I know think that things like inequality and bad luck are things that should just be accepted, and perhaps even encouraged, instead of being mitigated by the society.
Some libertarians do think as you say, you're right. However, everybody is free to help other people, give them money, food, a home, etc.
The only thing libertarians don't want is that somebody tries to attain political or social goals by force. Political and social goals are to be achieved by free will of free people, not by force.
Of course this can be done like in free trading: For example, you could say: "OK, I'll give you this car if you take care of these old and homeless people."
And I guess there would be PLENTY of people who would be ready to help poor people VOLUNTARILY.
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All those political parties, once they gained enough votes to enter parliament (well, we have some nice pre-selection here in germany ... the 5% hurdle), the congressmen become part of the parliamental circle, thus targets of lobbyists.
Once your desired party gets the power the corruption goes wild and so long to the great ideas.
d0DgE, of course you are right that many politicians/people no longer adhere to their principles as soon as they are in power. But this does not apply to everyone.
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BTW...Adok: did they kick you outta Mensa or what ?
No. Why are you asking?
isn't "libertarian" basically the same as "neoliberal" ?
We all saw how great THAT worked out...
We all saw how great THAT worked out...
to answer the topic: probably not, and that's a good thing
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it wrongly assumes that all people are born equally fortunate and have equal chances in life, which is not the case.
There is no such assumption in libertarianism. Here's where you get it wrong:
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The most disgusting libertarians I know think that things like inequality and bad luck are things that should just be accepted, and perhaps even encouraged, instead of being mitigated by the society.
You've got a bad case of false dichotomy there: socialism or apathy. Libertarians point to a number of ways to combat social inequality without Robin-Hood taxation. Most of all it's about this bizarre notion that most people actually want to work towards a better world even if you don't put a gun to their head. In fact you'll find libertarians arguing that the proverbial (sometimes not so proverbial) gun to the head is counterproductive in terms of creating social awareness: don't think, don't object, just pay your taxes and you won't have to take an active interest in the world around you. It's like outsourcing your conscience.
The truth may be that people are too selfish, stupid and evil for libertarianism to work. But then at least represent your own position honestly: you're against individual freedom because you have no faith in humanity. People shouldn't be allowed to make decisions because they can't be trusted to make the right ones.
Which is an ideology, too, I guess, fair enough.
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isn't "libertarian" basically the same as "neoliberal" ?
No.
doom: in what ways do they differ, then? both advocate lower taxes, smaller gov't, and more freedom.
skrebbel: Did you just call me a commie? O_o
"The truth may be that people are too selfish, stupid and evil for libertarianism to work. But then at least represent your own position honestly: you're against individual freedom because you have no faith in humanity. People shouldn't be allowed to make decisions because they can't be trusted to make the right ones."
This is what i REALLY hate about liberals is when they complain they dont got freedom.
In fact if they actually looked at not just government hindrance but private hindrances and compare them there would really be that much more of freedom by their own definition.
The MARKET is flexible, indiividuals with ingenuity can allways find a way despite taxation and laws.
And it bloody well has, Norway is churning out millionaires.
" you're against individual freedom because you have no faith in humanity. People shouldn't be allowed to make decisions because they can't be trusted to make the right ones."
Oh on the conterary, i have lots of faith in humans and that they are trying to do the right thing and do the best for themselves, if i wasnt i wouldnt want a welfare system.
The thing is, you belive that society can run like a well designed circutboard, if you just remove all the laws and taxes.
And thats the most naive conception that exist in politics to this day, it relies on extreme simplifications.
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And what is it with this bloody Pirate Party anyway... people should do their homework from where this skull and crossbones (yes, also caribean pirate skull) comes from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolly_Roger#Origins_of_the_design
Care to elaborate?
el topo, eh:
yeah it sure as hell comes close, innit?
wage slaves, srsly, it's not 1890. maybe things are different wherever you live, but 0 of my friends and acquaintances consider themselves wage slaves, not even the left wing chronically depressed 'i hate society' hippie few.
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The political concept of the future is the abolishment of class society, destruction of capitalism and liberation of the wage slaves. You may label it how you wish, I call it freedom.
yeah it sure as hell comes close, innit?
wage slaves, srsly, it's not 1890. maybe things are different wherever you live, but 0 of my friends and acquaintances consider themselves wage slaves, not even the left wing chronically depressed 'i hate society' hippie few.
but but but! i consider myself a (proud) wage slave... :)
Adok:
You don't get the routine of deligated power, do you?
To make it clear:
As a professional politician (that's what I'm talking about) you WILL NEVER
EVER get into positions of governmental (or roundtable-) power unless you
will close somewhat of a "Faust'ish" ( acc. to Goethe's "Faust") deal with the real "makers & shakers" of this world so that they "promote" you onto your
desired position - from where you'll be played like a puppet by even those makers & shakers. I.e. you will be able to get blackmailed by those men that PUT YOU into power to bring forward their goals and not serve the people.
Politicians are not elected they're SELECTED.
The best hollywood movie about that from my point of view is "Network"
You see I'm quite sensible on the subject. We've got a big "election year" in Germany and especially in my state Thuringia (still 2 elections to go).
Their all blabering the same horse jockey just to lure some morons on their side of the playfield whilest the real elections are beeing made every darn day with your very currency. You vote with your portemonaise not with a ballot sheet.
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But this does not apply to everyone.
You don't get the routine of deligated power, do you?
To make it clear:
As a professional politician (that's what I'm talking about) you WILL NEVER
EVER get into positions of governmental (or roundtable-) power unless you
will close somewhat of a "Faust'ish" ( acc. to Goethe's "Faust") deal with the real "makers & shakers" of this world so that they "promote" you onto your
desired position - from where you'll be played like a puppet by even those makers & shakers. I.e. you will be able to get blackmailed by those men that PUT YOU into power to bring forward their goals and not serve the people.
Politicians are not elected they're SELECTED.
The best hollywood movie about that from my point of view is "Network"
You see I'm quite sensible on the subject. We've got a big "election year" in Germany and especially in my state Thuringia (still 2 elections to go).
Their all blabering the same horse jockey just to lure some morons on their side of the playfield whilest the real elections are beeing made every darn day with your very currency. You vote with your portemonaise not with a ballot sheet.
dodge: srsly? damn dude, i was SO looking forward to my first kommunalwahlen :(
Sticking labels on one's political beliefs is silly, especially if you change your mind at some later date and want them removed. Pulling all those tiny hairs hurts like a bitch!
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The thing is, you belive that society can run like a well designed circutboard, if you just remove all the laws and taxes. And thats the most naive conception that exist in politics to this day, it relies on extreme simplifications.
Actually it relies on economics. As with all sciences a simplified model of reality is used; however, the main problem with the libertiarian belief that a free market can solve all problems is that it's an idea which lacks empirical basis and which might not even be falsifiable. On the other hand, it could be labeled equally naïve to trust a small group of elected individuals to be able to properly supervise a large society, what with bureaucracy and the ensuing corruption and information decay.
Personally I'd rather feel restricted by my own limitations than by those forcefully imposed on me by people with guns. YMMV.
economics like most social sciences needs to be more humble then any other degree.
Their aproximations needs to be LARGE because you cant QUANTIFY society.
And yes, most laws (command economy if you will but lets not get polemic here), probably have some form of bi-taste, but thats also why we have politics.
It is inefficient in but it gets results,
It is ruled on a collective basis but attleast i dont have the view that individualism is weak and fragile, in that regard i like to think that i have more faith in people and market then what libertarians has.
"Personally I'd rather feel restricted by my own limitations than by those forcefully imposed on me by people with guns. YMMV."
Well, the guns are allways gonna be there, even in a minarchist society, so if you feel treated unfairly because it does go the way you want, get in line there are other people who live in this country then you...thats offcourse unless nazis or stalinists gets to power.....or Andrew Ryan, then grab a gun.
feh....i hate political discussions.
FEH!
Their aproximations needs to be LARGE because you cant QUANTIFY society.
And yes, most laws (command economy if you will but lets not get polemic here), probably have some form of bi-taste, but thats also why we have politics.
It is inefficient in but it gets results,
It is ruled on a collective basis but attleast i dont have the view that individualism is weak and fragile, in that regard i like to think that i have more faith in people and market then what libertarians has.
"Personally I'd rather feel restricted by my own limitations than by those forcefully imposed on me by people with guns. YMMV."
Well, the guns are allways gonna be there, even in a minarchist society, so if you feel treated unfairly because it does go the way you want, get in line there are other people who live in this country then you...thats offcourse unless nazis or stalinists gets to power.....or Andrew Ryan, then grab a gun.
feh....i hate political discussions.
FEH!
no you don't.
The primary problem of being human, in my opinion, is:
THAT PEOPLE OFTEN TEND TO BELIEVE THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL OTHER PEOPLE HOW THEY SHOULD LEAD THEIR LIVES.
And that ought to be reduced to a minimum, IMHO.
THAT PEOPLE OFTEN TEND TO BELIEVE THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL OTHER PEOPLE HOW THEY SHOULD LEAD THEIR LIVES.
And that ought to be reduced to a minimum, IMHO.
OKIEDOKIE SO THIS IS THE WAY TO MAKE A POINT IT SEEMS.
WELL!
I THINK BANANAS ARE QUITE TASTY
WELL!
I THINK BANANAS ARE QUITE TASTY
I AGREE WITH ADOK
EIGEN VOLKO EERST!!!
Huh? Ik heb niet eens een auto, laat staan een Volvo
