pouët.net

Gargaj: it's not only money when it comes to "just getting a new gfx card". You also need the time to fuck around with the hardware (which is 10 minutes if you're lucky, or 10 hours and multiple trips to the shops to buy extra stuff if you're not), and the will to actually do such stuff. Some people enjoy it, others don't and go out and buy a box ready built + set up so they can get on with something more fun.

I guess this is one of the big reasons for macs getting more popular - you buy it, turn it on, and get on with it. Amigas etc. were pretty much the same back in the day - buy it, plug it in, insert disk.

That's the way it went for me anyway - I used to build my own pc, spend a ton of time tweaking stuff, overclocking, upgrading... Now i realise how much time disappears doing that, and I turn it on and do stuff instead :) I own a laptop and an imac - both have decent enough GPUs (for their time anyway), but neither is upgradable. That suits me perfectly - when the box is getting too slow, I'll sell it and buy a new one. But there will be a ton of demos I can't watch before then unfortunately.

I reckon to get people more interested in the scene and running stuff realtime again, we need to target less high-end hardware and make stuff more interactive. We'd still be doing pretty much the same thing. Otherwise, perhaps accept video for what it is, forget realtime and code something really awesome. There's still plenty of room in there for the traditional demo to keep us happy of course ;)

(I wonder, will the people sticking to pc/windows, realtime, non-interactive etc. become the new oldschool in future?)

gasman, however in Aardman Animations or your sculptor's example, the form/shape/nature of the result is different than by any other method.

The "shape" of a demo is its executable, and the realtime performance it produces.

If I was to produce videos non-realtime with demomaking methods, and using the scene's aesthetics then for someone who only watches videos it makes no difference, the form is the same. And if instead of coding I replace some of the effects with After Effects plugins and so on, you would not be able to see the difference.

And if I do it faster that way, with better quality and with less effort than the traditional method, then I'd consider that method vastly superior.

Your love for the form is already some sort of justification for it. Which actually comes back to the topic of the thread: if less people interact with the form, the executables, then all your love for it becomes a solipsistic pleasure.

It's not like there is no "added value" for those with beefy machines. Higher resolutions, no video encoding artefacts, AA or no AA, more fps etc. Although, I wouldn't mind to see more options like different soundtracks to select from (as seen in Cycle/BD), or colour scheme sliders (as seen in 003/foobug) or other things to add replay value. Not to mention hidden parts etc.

That reminds me of the "buy the album" or "go see the concert" vs. "download the MP3" discussion... Seems to be more about passion and ethics than anything else.

why are you all so obsessed with appealing to the "outside world" that you're actually willing to change to fit in with its demands, rather than just doing what you want to do?

I find most videos ugly. High frequencies seems kinda destroyed.

I just tried watching metamorphosis/midnight run on HD video on youtube...

Not fun at all

Video killed the demo stars!!!

Sorry guys, but history already revealed the truth looong ago: media can live parallel lives without killing each other. And demos are NOT the medium here IMHO.

Oh, and take it easy, dudez!

Smash, there is no outside world. I feel an outsider already in the scene, and I feel increasingly that even those who historically have been sceners for 10 or more years are outsiders now.

Which was the question I asked to gargaj.. What is a demoscener today?

1. without some outside interest now and then, the scene gets smaller and smaller. I.e. less demos each year for us to watch.

2. if 'the outside world' finds demos a bit boring + pointless, maybe they have a point? For me, the thing that I love about demos isn't the fixed "non-interactive, same every time" part, it's the amazing code + design and stuff. That doesn't have to come in a traditional demo format - if a demo isn't realtime, it can still have jaw dropping coded effects. We used to have interactive parts in demos in the old days too, and they were fun - I don't know why there's opposition to that now.

Interactive demos? I can't recall any popular demos from the past that are interactive.

And no, the outsiders, they don't have a point. Demos are just really geeky stuff appealing a very small group of people. Fancy MTV like video clips are not going to change that.

Hey. If your demo as a precalc time longer than what I need to download a video, I think you failed at demoing :)
And about the dll mess: it could be the same with video codecs. So that does not count. People should agree on what's needed to run a demo. Look at amiga : there is a lot of .library files there but demos tend to run on a fresh install of amigaos. (at least most of them run on my not-so-fresh one).

Anyway, I don't care. What I enjoy is coding a demo and showing the result at a party and discussing about it with other people. I tend not to even watch other demos when I'm at home, except when I'm bored of my own code. Being a scener is about making demos, not watching and thumbing them.

Tons of oldschool stuff was interactive. Parts where you could control some 3d stuff, for example, or the cool menus for the old multi-part demos.

And I'm not suggesting making fancy mtv video clips, that's not what we're about. I just think it'd be good to put some freshness in :) Like the suggestion before about a 4k video competition to complement the 4k graphics one.

demos are easier to watch than ever, its all over youtube and there's more outreach than ever - yet the quality and volume of new pc demos is worse than ever. so something's not working. the divide between demo watchers and demo makers is bigger than ever, and i personally don't think putting everything in video form has narrowed that - in fact the opposite.

the most success i've had sucking people into being interested in the scene has been from groups of people who are already heavily tech savvy - from the video games and computer graphics world (artists+coders) - who often have the hw to watch demos realtime and have an interest in creating high end graphics.
id love to know if there's anyone who watched demos on youtube and started making them. otherwise, i cant help but think its only attracted a new breed of _watchers_, not makers.

Yeah, the average youtube viewer isn't the average potential demo maker. The potential demo makers are the people doing games, plus all the people doing the cool afterfx stuff, the processing scene, and all the other 'scenes' out there. I don't think we're really grabbing their attention all that much though.

The ones going to every party there is to drink beer and appear on Slengpung, that's the impression I get anyway :)

I watch people make cool electronic experiments on youtube all the time but I haven't used my soldering iron for electronics in 12 years.

btw, we who are so technically advanced people (lol). why can't one make a torrentengine with demos, but with a special written client (aka scene.org server) which always seeds at least one copy? I don't know how to do it or else I would, but I'm sure there are people who can in this scene.

so.. what's the fucking problem? those who crave to see it realtime, can doubleclick on the .exe file.. those who are too lazy / technically underequiped / linux homo can click on the youtube link.. if you cannot judge the technical and artistical (or lack of) value of a demo based on a videocapture you should really ponder what the fuck you're doing in the demoscene in the first place then.

i tend to run most demos realtime. 99,9% of the demos and intros arent that technically challenging anyway that you need a supercomputer from outer space to run them, you can bloody run them on a 3yo laptop at a decent FPS. For rewatching them i usually use youtube cos it's less hassle (plus ability to fastforward to the good bits etc or having just the soundtrack playing in the back whilst trolling on pouet...) and youtube is also excellent for the odd thing that needs an emulator or genuine machine.

thec: I too thought about a unified distribution platform for the scene a few days ago. But then I concluded: We have Pouët with a quite acceptable search bar to the top-right of the page.

But of course I agree, it could be an amazing platform if it is indeed scalable enough and flexible.

Would bit torrent really help download these <50mb (at the upper end!) files? It's not like scene.org is slow. I don't see any benefit, except for perhaps HD captures and demo dvds.

<50mb video files are crap quality.

C64 TORRENT CLIENT PLZ SO I CAN TWITTER AND DOWNLOAD FULLHD VIDEOS!1!!111

nosfe: yeah, but the suggestion was bit torrent for demos. If it's for good quality videos, then yeah it's a good idea :)

Youtube is really a terrible medium for demos with those tracks recorded at 8khz and the shitload of insulting artifacts on the videos themselves, i'm in favor of removing/banning all youtube links from pouet.

Anyway the primary target audience for the demoscene shouldn't be those youtube bozos but the wannabe games developers.

If you want to do outreach go right to gamedev sites and preach there,
i'm pretty sure that most of those people never complete the games they start.

Go explain them that doing a 151505th clone of pong or tetr*s won't lead them anywhere and that they won't be able to finish that super mega game they just started as it would require too much work anyway and in the end only castration, frustration, depression, pain & bitterness will ensue (& hair loss)

On the other hand doing demos is (and have always been) a royal and less painful entrance to amateur dx/ogl/consoles/retro platforms programming, they won't have to care about playability balance, user input, devices controllers, eventual network handling, millions of details and polishing they won't be able to manage anyway due to lack of spare time and motivation which fades away sooner or later as it won't take them years to complete a demo or an intro, and having done so is more gratifying than being left with an half finished game, etc.

+ there's also gamedev compos at parties *wink* *wink*.