do christians who commit suicide automatically go to hell?
category: general [glöplog]
sir RICHARD kbab: OK, I see your point. I gave those examples because I've seen them myself and they was slightly related to the topic. And well, for me at least, to see a person come up from alcoholism without any sort of treatment or expert help, is quite extraordinary.
eye/midiclub: I'd like to know more what's going on over there, but I won't make any guesses.. you are speaking a bit too cryptic...
Just plain don't take me too serious. i don't want to become another Optimus or shaneloup. :> If someone would care about my... dissappearence, these are only my parents. The university folks would probably never get to know. Just as the Pouet folks. My former classmates might be informed by someone. But noone would care.
Just i think my beloved one would have to think once again about her life. But no, it won't hurt her. Instead she would probably feel some kind of relief.
You know, people don't care about each other. 3 years ago, 2 kids, one 2 another 3 years old, died in their flat of thurst. Their mother has left for over a week to spend with her new "friend". Neighbours heard the kids cry but didn't call the police. Noone feels sorry. That's life.
Being non-christian doesn't have anything to do with it, it's about being non-moral. There are also christians, even very prominent ones, who are highly unmoral. Current moral, as we know it from the Bible, also comes up in a Phisosophy, which is not based on religion. Just read Kant.
But i would also believe that the moral is a result of a darvinistic process, i.e. diversity and natural selection. The folks which did not build up the moral similar to Christian, died out. They robbed, killed each other, hungered to death without help. etc. Something a moral should prevent. And seeing a modern world, where being unmoral is accepted and normal, i would believe it would come to an end. Like with the Great Flood. And as the unmoral ones have too much power, the moral ones won't be able to escape in a Noah's Ark.
If i become a christian myself, i would suffer further, because it won't change the world around me. If i become an acloholician, i would at least not care any longer. Unfortunately, i seem to be somewhat immune against it.
Just i think my beloved one would have to think once again about her life. But no, it won't hurt her. Instead she would probably feel some kind of relief.
You know, people don't care about each other. 3 years ago, 2 kids, one 2 another 3 years old, died in their flat of thurst. Their mother has left for over a week to spend with her new "friend". Neighbours heard the kids cry but didn't call the police. Noone feels sorry. That's life.
Being non-christian doesn't have anything to do with it, it's about being non-moral. There are also christians, even very prominent ones, who are highly unmoral. Current moral, as we know it from the Bible, also comes up in a Phisosophy, which is not based on religion. Just read Kant.
But i would also believe that the moral is a result of a darvinistic process, i.e. diversity and natural selection. The folks which did not build up the moral similar to Christian, died out. They robbed, killed each other, hungered to death without help. etc. Something a moral should prevent. And seeing a modern world, where being unmoral is accepted and normal, i would believe it would come to an end. Like with the Great Flood. And as the unmoral ones have too much power, the moral ones won't be able to escape in a Noah's Ark.
If i become a christian myself, i would suffer further, because it won't change the world around me. If i become an acloholician, i would at least not care any longer. Unfortunately, i seem to be somewhat immune against it.
I have a comment about the Christian suicide issue:
First of all: Is Hell described in the Bible?
The word "hell" is in many bibletranslations. But it comes from the heathen mythology and means
"complete punishment in the kingdom of dead". Other translations uses "the grave", "kingdom of dead" or similar,
It concerns about three words in the original Bible-scriptures:
the hebrew "sje'ol" and the similar greek "hai'des", that means the common grave of mankind, and the
greek "ge'enna", which is used as a symbol for eternal annihilation. The Christianity aswell as many
non-christian religions learns meanwhile that hell is a place with demons and where the evils gets punished
after death.
Is this what the Bible says?
The Bibel does not tell about a Hell with eternal punishment. God is not evil, so he will not give eternal
pain to anyone! Not even the evil!
When a man dies, he turns into dust and is gone. This sleep-"mode" is the Grave (sheol/Hades).
When God re-creates the Paradise on earth, everyone from the Grave will resurrect to become perfect and
live forever, as Gods plan with mankind originally is!
People who resist God by purpose (the evil ones) will not resurrect. The are really gone forever.
After resurrection, mankind will achieve perfection.
Perfected people (after resurrection) who resists God, will reach the "second death" (gehenna) which is
eternal annihilation, which simply means nonexistense.
Since there is no Hell, the question is now:
- Will a Christian commiting suicide get resurrection in paradise?
Lets then find out how does God look at suicide:
If a man commits suicide, he might feel escape from his problems.
But he gives his relatives a lot of sorrows and problems, so it is not very loving to do!
But still, it depends on the persons mood and condition, why he did what he did.
If the person was mentally ill or very depressed, he might not really be aware of what he did.
The Bible tells that the resurrection will consist of righteous and unrighteous people.
Unrighteous people in this case are people who didnt know God before they died.
Some of them could be criminals - even murders!
These unrighteous could have a potential for regretting what they did before, so God gives them a
chance to learn about him and get forgiveness!
A man who kills himself could be considered as a mankiller, but since a murder can change his mind, then
can a suicide attendant also change his mind after ressurection. God gives him a chance to regret what he did!
We can not judge a person of what he can achieve - only God can! He knows our thoughts and whats
in our hearts. So he will judge everyone fair!
And he knows why the person killed himself.
So it depends of the situation.
I hope these thoughts can be useful.
First of all: Is Hell described in the Bible?
The word "hell" is in many bibletranslations. But it comes from the heathen mythology and means
"complete punishment in the kingdom of dead". Other translations uses "the grave", "kingdom of dead" or similar,
It concerns about three words in the original Bible-scriptures:
the hebrew "sje'ol" and the similar greek "hai'des", that means the common grave of mankind, and the
greek "ge'enna", which is used as a symbol for eternal annihilation. The Christianity aswell as many
non-christian religions learns meanwhile that hell is a place with demons and where the evils gets punished
after death.
Is this what the Bible says?
The Bibel does not tell about a Hell with eternal punishment. God is not evil, so he will not give eternal
pain to anyone! Not even the evil!
When a man dies, he turns into dust and is gone. This sleep-"mode" is the Grave (sheol/Hades).
When God re-creates the Paradise on earth, everyone from the Grave will resurrect to become perfect and
live forever, as Gods plan with mankind originally is!
People who resist God by purpose (the evil ones) will not resurrect. The are really gone forever.
After resurrection, mankind will achieve perfection.
Perfected people (after resurrection) who resists God, will reach the "second death" (gehenna) which is
eternal annihilation, which simply means nonexistense.
Since there is no Hell, the question is now:
- Will a Christian commiting suicide get resurrection in paradise?
Lets then find out how does God look at suicide:
If a man commits suicide, he might feel escape from his problems.
But he gives his relatives a lot of sorrows and problems, so it is not very loving to do!
But still, it depends on the persons mood and condition, why he did what he did.
If the person was mentally ill or very depressed, he might not really be aware of what he did.
The Bible tells that the resurrection will consist of righteous and unrighteous people.
Unrighteous people in this case are people who didnt know God before they died.
Some of them could be criminals - even murders!
These unrighteous could have a potential for regretting what they did before, so God gives them a
chance to learn about him and get forgiveness!
A man who kills himself could be considered as a mankiller, but since a murder can change his mind, then
can a suicide attendant also change his mind after ressurection. God gives him a chance to regret what he did!
We can not judge a person of what he can achieve - only God can! He knows our thoughts and whats
in our hearts. So he will judge everyone fair!
And he knows why the person killed himself.
So it depends of the situation.
I hope these thoughts can be useful.
I have a comment about the Christian suicide issue:
First of all: Is Hell described in the Bible?
The word "hell" is in many bibletranslations. But it comes from the heathen mythology and means
"complete punishment in the kingdom of dead". Other translations uses "the grave", "kingdom of dead" or similar,
It concerns about three words in the original Bible-scriptures:
the hebrew "sje'ol" and the similar greek "hai'des", that means the common grave of mankind, and the
greek "ge'enna", which is used as a symbol for eternal annihilation. The Christianity aswell as many
non-christian religions learns meanwhile that hell is a place with demons and where the evils gets punished
after death.
Is this what the Bible says?
The Bibel does not tell about a Hell with eternal punishment. God is not evil, so he will not give eternal
pain to anyone! Not even the evil!
When a man dies, he turns into dust and is gone. This sleep-"mode" is the Grave (sheol/Hades).
When God re-creates the Paradise on earth, everyone from the Grave will resurrect to become perfect and
live forever, as Gods plan with mankind originally is!
People who resist God by purpose (the evil ones) will not resurrect. The are really gone forever.
After resurrection, mankind will achieve perfection.
Perfected people (after resurrection) who resists God, will reach the "second death" (gehenna) which is
eternal annihilation, which simply means nonexistense.
Since there is no Hell, the question is now:
- Will a Christian commiting suicide get resurrection in paradise?
Lets then find out how does God look at suicide:
If a man commits suicide, he might feel escape from his problems.
But he gives his relatives a lot of sorrows and problems, so it is not very loving to do!
But still, it depends on the persons mood and condition, why he did what he did.
If the person was mentally ill or very depressed, he might not really be aware of what he did.
The Bible tells that the resurrection will consist of righteous and unrighteous people.
Unrighteous people in this case are people who didnt know God before they died.
Some of them could be criminals - even murders!
These unrighteous could have a potential for regretting what they did before, so God gives them a
chance to learn about him and get forgiveness!
A man who kills himself could be considered as a mankiller, but since a murder can change his mind, then
can a suicide attendant also change his mind after ressurection. God gives him a chance to regret what he did!
We can not judge a person of what he can achieve - only God can! He knows our thoughts and whats
in our hearts. So he will judge everyone fair!
And he knows why the person killed himself.
So it depends of the situation.
I hope these thoughts can be useful.
First of all: Is Hell described in the Bible?
The word "hell" is in many bibletranslations. But it comes from the heathen mythology and means
"complete punishment in the kingdom of dead". Other translations uses "the grave", "kingdom of dead" or similar,
It concerns about three words in the original Bible-scriptures:
the hebrew "sje'ol" and the similar greek "hai'des", that means the common grave of mankind, and the
greek "ge'enna", which is used as a symbol for eternal annihilation. The Christianity aswell as many
non-christian religions learns meanwhile that hell is a place with demons and where the evils gets punished
after death.
Is this what the Bible says?
The Bibel does not tell about a Hell with eternal punishment. God is not evil, so he will not give eternal
pain to anyone! Not even the evil!
When a man dies, he turns into dust and is gone. This sleep-"mode" is the Grave (sheol/Hades).
When God re-creates the Paradise on earth, everyone from the Grave will resurrect to become perfect and
live forever, as Gods plan with mankind originally is!
People who resist God by purpose (the evil ones) will not resurrect. The are really gone forever.
After resurrection, mankind will achieve perfection.
Perfected people (after resurrection) who resists God, will reach the "second death" (gehenna) which is
eternal annihilation, which simply means nonexistense.
Since there is no Hell, the question is now:
- Will a Christian commiting suicide get resurrection in paradise?
Lets then find out how does God look at suicide:
If a man commits suicide, he might feel escape from his problems.
But he gives his relatives a lot of sorrows and problems, so it is not very loving to do!
But still, it depends on the persons mood and condition, why he did what he did.
If the person was mentally ill or very depressed, he might not really be aware of what he did.
The Bible tells that the resurrection will consist of righteous and unrighteous people.
Unrighteous people in this case are people who didnt know God before they died.
Some of them could be criminals - even murders!
These unrighteous could have a potential for regretting what they did before, so God gives them a
chance to learn about him and get forgiveness!
A man who kills himself could be considered as a mankiller, but since a murder can change his mind, then
can a suicide attendant also change his mind after ressurection. God gives him a chance to regret what he did!
We can not judge a person of what he can achieve - only God can! He knows our thoughts and whats
in our hearts. So he will judge everyone fair!
And he knows why the person killed himself.
So it depends of the situation.
I hope these thoughts can be useful.
>Hmmm... who could know Optimus has an Alcohol problem! Optimus, i think your attitude about drinking is somewhat wrong.
I can't say I am having an alcohol problem (in comparison to other people who really have a BIG problem). I was rarely drinking in Greece (And rarely found the opportunity) as you have seen me in demoparties. Since I am in Germany (it's a common thing here), since my life is a mess, since I visit demoparties, I decided to grab the opportunity and do it a bit more in here. I am having a time (and a free life) for 6 months, so why not? Most probably, it will be not so common when I come back to Greece. I was never known as a real drunkard in my homeplace. Except if my passion develops..
>It's better not to drink to get drunk. The only good way to drink is to enjoy drinking. Getting drunk is a positive side-effect!
I never enjoyed drinking! I could never understand how should I enjoy drinking!!! I don't understand how people enjoy that, almost as I also don't understand how some people enjoy inhaling pure smoke! Every alcoholic drink had annoying taste for me. Beers are bitter, especially lately (I was yesterday with a friend and I could enjoy it at all), wine or whiskey is also strange, ouzo is very damn hot, perhaps vodka with lemonade is better but that's because it's mixed with lemonade which is cool =). I mean,. nothing is as cool as alcoholfree drinks, as sweet, cool and tasty as Fanta, Ice Tea, Orang Juice or even Coca Cola (which suxx most times for me, but still better than any alcoholic drink). So,. the only reason I have to drink alcohol is because of the aftereffect!
When I was younger, I always asked for a fanta or anything, at food in the restaurant or so. My friends or my parents told me "Why aren't you drinking any beer or wine like all of us?". I didn't liked it! I never understood because it tasted like shit!!! If you try to drink a lot, you are going to puke! And I sometimes had to drink because my mother thought I am out or something (yes!), because she watches every young person around the town who has a life, drinking, having fun with the rest of the people and then getting a girlfriend too and be cool (Heh ;). But then why drink that, because everybody just drinks it and I have to be inside the things?
Years later, a friend gave me some ouzo to try. At the beginning I wondered why should I drink that since it's too hot and I am struggling while drinking it while it gives me no taste back! But the aftereffects came faster with ouzo. And suddenly I realized why should I drink! I don't know if it's the same reason for other people. But I once again don't enjoy drinking, I am just enjoying the aftereffects!
I am struggling to put that think in my mouth because it tastes awfull. But what I gain in return makes it worth. I guess there is a good reason why alcohol sucks so much in taste. Imagine what could happen if ouzo was as tasty as Fanta. I would have developed a drinking problem for sure :) (How 'bout that Salmiaki? Someone said it's so sweet, melted, like a candy,. I don't know if it's true. I hope they don't export that much of it in Greece, but I'd love to test it at BP =)
Ahhh!!! One more thing..
Coffee. Another thing I could never understand. An emply taste for me. Worse than the worst alcohol. Or just a nothingness. Of course they say that it keeps you awaken, but I never had a need for that or really thought of trying when I am sleeping. People are getting very nervous with coffee and I'd also prefer a more natural way to keep me awake, or just stand up and go to sleep, letting the latest exams/demo deadline go to hell instead!!!
p.s. Did you know that the strange phenomena of spontaneous human combustion has to do with alcoholism btw?
Optimus, go to a supermarket, buy 'Breezers' in generous quantities, go home, drink, follow tutorial, code demo, be happy!
About suicide.
I never wanted to suicide. I had big plans for the future when I was a kid. I was afraid to die then. However, I am not really sure now how did I bared life during my childhood. I was always crying, restricted by my parents and kicked out by my stupid schoolmates. However, life seems even more tiring today, or perhaps I just got tired after all these bad years and I don't get it easilly anymore. It was lately when I could imagine the reasons behind suicide. As life was harder than the one during my childhood (in a way, it isn't)?
I still don't think that I will head seriously for suicide. Misery in my life, makes it more interesting, so that I prefer to continue and learn more from it than stop it. I really want to continue living and discover where the way I have chosen leads. It's just that sometimes, in order to get more familiar with death or nothingness, I say to myself that it would be fine for me if I died today. It's necesary for me in this world where it's possible that everyone could die unexpectedly oneday..
However, I want to say something else!
Mental suicide.
Why physically die when you can't bare life, while there is something more interesting to make that perhaps can give you serenity? It's hard to say what I think, but I mean, most of my life struggle is coming from the fact that I have an ego, a personality and a lot of bad memories, like settings telling me what is good, bad, normal or abnormal in any thing I am doing. Feeling of shame or disgust about myself. And other things that bare the human soul, like bad memories of people that you 've hurted (for me it's my parents mostly, but what can I do?). Perhaps for others it's also loneliness (I have never felt that really) and more things that I haven't experienced.
A lot of struggle that makes people want to suicide, is just all these bad memories, feelings, settings and the feeling of ego. In other ways, soul struggles and searches for serenity. A way to get it? Physical suicide. You won't exist, so no worries anymore..
But why not take the other (and more interesting) way? If suicidial people really think that their life isn't worth anymore, then they can easilly deny many of these thoughts, settings of society, bad feelings they shouldn't get or anything, via ways like "If I reached the bottom in my life, then why should I care about these things too?" since you have a general feeling of nothingness for everything and so then why not about ideas that makes you feel bad for stupid reasons too? If life is really not worth then it's also no worth to struggle anymore for every everyday shit!
1) You might reach serenity this way. Perhaps we are constantly worrying for stupid reasons, but don't see the little nice everyday things that could bring us some pieces of happiness. Perhaps happiness is not the right word, but serenity. By accepting the shit we are, there is not much to worry as struggling to be something meaningfull inside society. Mental death brings serenity that we missed..
2) It's interesting too. As long as we had a personality and tried to play our role in a society with it's own stupid beliefs, we didn't do anything else than struggling about having a good image inside it. Mental suicide will be a change. And if you have reached such a deep bottom in your life that makes you really thinking of physical suicide, then perhaps you know have the chance to easilly erase the negative beliefs that mess up with your personality (I don't know about erasing personality itself yet :P) since nothing is worth and neither these stupid thoughts from people around you that made it inside your head! And you get an alternative aspect of things because you never changed these beliefs when you were still feeling alive before..
An example about me.
One thing that tired me a lot in life was that I was always struggling about me and my activity in the demoscene. Well, in connection to other things like my silly dream of becoming a famous computer freak or the fights I had with my parents because I had to work a lot in front of my computer in order to fullfill this dream of mine. All these and other parts of my life were a mess. Now these aspects of the scene are almost dead (still lurking) in my head, because things got so bad that I had to stop taking seriously the scene. I did it by wondering why do people work so much for demos, why am I struggling to do this, why do I have expectations of what people expect from me and such. I am also thinking of ironical facts that make me stop taking the scene so seriously.
1) I was struggling (mostly with the idea and not with activity) to produce things for the scene just to become famous, but I got this with the silliest way online.
2) Thank you very much for your comments at my 256b entry for 0a000h, but was that all? This release were not hard work for me, 1-2 evenings of evolving my old korillaclub blob entry (which also took 2 evenings), unfinished, unfilled bytes and my mood to contribute that at the party was "Let's get rid of it, because I don't find the mood to continue with it just for the scene activity, feeling or something". It's the first time I felt recognition, but so simple? And my 1st CPC demo is my only proud work, far above, didn't felt that much by comments rather than from the personal email from CPC sceners, and still not much. I don't ask for that, I just wanted to claim another contradiction, another strange feeling I got from the unexpected feedback for blobdistort201, that made me for the second time stop taking the scene so seriously. I also see people saying that they underestimated me, or thinking that I prooved that I am not a lamer or something. Why should people expect something from me anyways? Not that I am angry, but the scene is dead in my mind, I will only code when I love to do it and not in order to proove something to people..
But if scene is an important part of my life, or these wicked motives behind scene activitity, I mentally killed it. The only problem that would be arise is that perhaps I'll not be able to find motivations for being creative, something that makes me struggle again :P
To finish this big thing, I still don't know about mental suicide but I think it's a better alternative and more interesting than physically dying. Alternatives of mental suicide could be bad, like not caring about everything, even the people you might harm. Perhaps you are getting cold. But if a carefull mental suicide where you just get rid of your old beliefs that made your soul to struggle? However, there are always complications. Perhaps some of these beliefs are forming your personality. You don't want to kill your personality. That's the hardest part and I wouldn't do it. Perhaps you want at the same time to be empty of thoughts but be your personality, which then again makes you worry. How can you get full serenity (I only got tiny pieces of it lately) when you still want to keep your personality in order to feel it? I think Castanenda's philosophy was talking about totally killing personality, what you (think you) are. But that's far away from me and I am just trying to find a way living and not struggling at the same time. Perhaps physical suicidiers have a good reason, you can never stop struggle as long as you live in a way, but even if you die where are you going? Perhaps in another killing life?
It shouldn't be as big :(
Just thoughts. But consider mental suicide (isn't Christianity something like that for some people in a way? :) as an alternative to physical suicide. It feels so great at little time, when I can finally stop caring about people's belief, if I have a life, if I have a girlfriend, if I am ugly, if I am not normal, if I am not as good as other people might be, or what people think anyways. I love demystifying people's beliefs (settings as I love to call them) that make humans follow certain paths or struggle with their selfs in the other way. I reached these conclusions after a lot of years of struggling with every little idea (and I am not perfect because bad feeling are coming back, but not as often and less often as time goes!) and match in a way what my UK friend from Erasmus had once told me..
Have a time.
p.s. big texts accidentally posted twice or thrice sucks, but big texts in general not =)
I know I am wrong in here, because if things were so simple, people wouldn't choose physical suicide instead. But consider it, I am considering it too as long as time goes!
"Thank you very much for your comments at my 256b entry for 0a000h, but was that all?"
Uhm,. to not misunderstand, what I mean here is NOT "Was that all? I want more feedback!" BUT "Was that all I needed to do in order to get some respect I have never taken since 5 years of the scene? A very little lazy work of 3 evenings, in comparison to the hard work for my 1st CPC demo which neither got the 1st place, nor so much true surprising comments from sceners! (Most people who have voted for it, simply haven't seen other CPC demos to compare, it was feeling more like a support rather than real recognition)"
Uhm,. to not misunderstand, what I mean here is NOT "Was that all? I want more feedback!" BUT "Was that all I needed to do in order to get some respect I have never taken since 5 years of the scene? A very little lazy work of 3 evenings, in comparison to the hard work for my 1st CPC demo which neither got the 1st place, nor so much true surprising comments from sceners! (Most people who have voted for it, simply haven't seen other CPC demos to compare, it was feeling more like a support rather than real recognition)"
optimus, you miss out! i couldn't live a normal life without coffee, booze and cigarettes.. or maybe i'm just fucking up my life.. who knows,
Jesus! i was still reading your first post! now my post seems irrelevant :D
I didn't want to mean of course that coffee or cigarettes are useless for everyone, rather than they didn't appeal for me. Perhaps someone finds a good reason for drinking coffee or smoking, or even enjoys drinking rather than just the aftereffects of it.
optimus, you'd note all that down, like i do.
i'm currently doing that for the book i'm writing, i got a log full of rememberances on my childhood and the effects that certain things from back then have to what i do and what i am today.
i'm currently doing that for the book i'm writing, i got a log full of rememberances on my childhood and the effects that certain things from back then have to what i do and what i am today.
As to alcohloc drinks. If you enjoy limo, you would probably enjoy Rigo. It's a limo with rum. Very sweet. You feel "better" instantly. ;) But seriously, i love red wine. I had been taught German by a guy who collects and can differentiate wine very well. He also gave me a try a few times. When drinking red wine, getting drunk is totally wrong. Don't smoke before drinking wine. Pour about 1/4 - 1/2 of your glass. It must be a wide wine glass. Then wait. Then smell on it. If you don't enjoy the smell, wait more until you do. Then drink it. But not like you drink water. Leave some in your mouth, taste on it. There are a lot more tricks as to drinking red wine properly, but this should get you started. And hey, don't spare on it.
About coffee. Avoid coffee machines. What you usually get from them is tasteless or bitter black water. First, go to an italian cafe and get youself latte macchiato, if you like milk. Then you may try capuccino. Then comes the mild hardcore: espresso. I would never be able to get it right, as most of the people. but hey, those italian girls handle it somehow. ;) My favorite is double-espresso, since i am a hardcore coffee-drinker. If that still is not enough, go to a turlish cafe and get a turkish coffee. Warning: it's a real hardcore. If it is done right, it is very very thick! But most important is again, to smell and to taste, not to pour coffee into your stomach. One downside of turkish cafes that you don't get coffe done by girls, as opposed to italian, where you usually do. That reminds me: going to drink coffee tomorrow.
As to mental suicide: have you gone though it? I have. I'm carrying a stomach ulcer around with me since then. I was completely unsociable. I can't remember or don't want to much else, it is too painful.
About coffee. Avoid coffee machines. What you usually get from them is tasteless or bitter black water. First, go to an italian cafe and get youself latte macchiato, if you like milk. Then you may try capuccino. Then comes the mild hardcore: espresso. I would never be able to get it right, as most of the people. but hey, those italian girls handle it somehow. ;) My favorite is double-espresso, since i am a hardcore coffee-drinker. If that still is not enough, go to a turlish cafe and get a turkish coffee. Warning: it's a real hardcore. If it is done right, it is very very thick! But most important is again, to smell and to taste, not to pour coffee into your stomach. One downside of turkish cafes that you don't get coffe done by girls, as opposed to italian, where you usually do. That reminds me: going to drink coffee tomorrow.
As to mental suicide: have you gone though it? I have. I'm carrying a stomach ulcer around with me since then. I was completely unsociable. I can't remember or don't want to much else, it is too painful.
>optimus, you'd note all that down, like i do.
i'm currently doing that for the book i'm writing, i got
>a log full of rememberances on my childhood and the effects that certain things from back then have
>to what i do and what i am today.
I was thinking that sometimes. Perhaps it's not so good idea to write the big texts here, I should better do something with them. I'd like to write a novel or something..
>As to mental suicide: have you gone though it? I >have. I'm carrying a stomach ulcer around with me
>since then. I was completely unsociable. I can't remember or don't want to much else, it is too painful.
I am not sure about myself. Perhaps it's just an idea. The bad thing is that I can never know how people really feel. In a way, if I went through a mental suicide, I wouldn't care. I am just trying not to care but I remember back. Yesterday I was in a party, I drunk 3 beers and I met some girls, but that made me depressive then. Perhaps that's the reason that I was avoiding social meetings with Erasmus students for some months lately. It's a struggle for me. But then again,. to avoid things and do nothing, brings me another struggle..
i'm currently doing that for the book i'm writing, i got
>a log full of rememberances on my childhood and the effects that certain things from back then have
>to what i do and what i am today.
I was thinking that sometimes. Perhaps it's not so good idea to write the big texts here, I should better do something with them. I'd like to write a novel or something..
>As to mental suicide: have you gone though it? I >have. I'm carrying a stomach ulcer around with me
>since then. I was completely unsociable. I can't remember or don't want to much else, it is too painful.
I am not sure about myself. Perhaps it's just an idea. The bad thing is that I can never know how people really feel. In a way, if I went through a mental suicide, I wouldn't care. I am just trying not to care but I remember back. Yesterday I was in a party, I drunk 3 beers and I met some girls, but that made me depressive then. Perhaps that's the reason that I was avoiding social meetings with Erasmus students for some months lately. It's a struggle for me. But then again,. to avoid things and do nothing, brings me another struggle..
Even if I am living alone I am not happy. I am afraid in a way and I want to return back to Greece soon (but after BP). Perhaps the reason is that I can't see myself doing nothing in here. Since I am finally having a free life, I have a responsibility to improve it. But that's what I was afraid, the fact that I didn't succeed. Perhaps the motive was wrong, like "Now I am here in Germany, I have to get a life". And I was trying to put discipline plans to myself, not asking what I really want from life but what I MUST do, which might be wrong. It might be, I say, because if I just say "Oh well,. I shouldn't oppress myself" then I get nothing. I am lazy, no studies, no mood to struggle finding a girlfriend, lazy to be social with people, prefering to stay in my computer, sometimes lazy to make anything for the scene too (and why should I?), but then again struggling if doing nothing. Perhaps life in Greece made me think: "Since my parents control parts of my life, how can't it be a mess?" but now I didn't had such an excuse for my still bad life in here. I am not sure if I did what I was looking for. At least I had a time, I learned few things (perhaps to take things less seriously), perhaps my attitude changed to a determined "fuck life, fuck girls, they are not for you and just make you more depressed anyways..", really. In a way it's like avoiding my problems, abandoning real life, but if they are making me sad and I can't help them? I somehow nostalgy some parts of life in Greece. And I want to see old friends and live simple. Perhaps other changes might help me oneday too, but for the moment I deny to struggle anymore for having a so called life. I am struggling when I remember back..
MZ1453: I tend to read the bible, instead of following some strange theory. Regarding what the bible says about a place most people think of as "hell", one could just read the bible for example at:
Luke 16:19-31
Revelation 14:9-12
Revelation 20:7-15
For me at least, words as: "torment", "for ever and ever", etc. are quite clear.
Luke 16:19-31
Revelation 14:9-12
Revelation 20:7-15
For me at least, words as: "torment", "for ever and ever", etc. are quite clear.
eye/midiclub: Hehe. Maybe I'm exceptionally stupid, but I can't seem to figure out if you are talking generally or about your own situation.
Talking hypotetically, what do you think would happen to you if you became a christian? As you say you would suffer more because it wouldn't change the world around you.
Talking hypotetically, what do you think would happen to you if you became a christian? As you say you would suffer more because it wouldn't change the world around you.
I'm extrapolating my own situation (and what i can see right in front of my nose) onto the rest of the world. That's what everyone is doing anyway.
I didn't mean suffer more, i meant continue suffering in the same way further in time. Besides, i cannot become a christian because religion is based on belief as if it really existed in something, of which i know it's a result of human fiction. Not the worst i've read though. ;)
I didn't mean suffer more, i meant continue suffering in the same way further in time. Besides, i cannot become a christian because religion is based on belief as if it really existed in something, of which i know it's a result of human fiction. Not the worst i've read though. ;)
MRI:
I understand what you mean!
Don't misunderstand me - i'm not playing around with strange theories or whatever!
I agree with you to only read the Bible!
I believe that the Bible - and nothing else - is the true inspired word of God!
But its important to be aware that some passages (especially the Revelation) is written symbolic and illustrating, and
comparing it with rest of the Bible to find what it expains about itself.
I'm glad that you mentioned the 3 passages in the Bible that seems to speak of an eternal torment.
The first one, in Luke 16:19-31:
This story of he rich man and Lazarus is not to be understood litteraly, since it is an illustration - just like
Jesus often used illustrations and hyberbels to illustrate a situation or problem.
If this illustration was litteraly, then the Bible would be contradicting to compare with Ecclesiastes 9:5:
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are concious of nothing at all,
neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."
9:10: ".. for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol the place which you are going"
Try also Genesis 3:19 and Psalms 146:4
Since the passages mentioned before tells that a dead man is unconsious, not aware of anyting, then the
illustration in Luke must be an illustration. Doesnt it sound logic?
I have just read an explanation of this illustration: I quote:
"The rich man" illustrates the pharisees. (verse 14) The beggar Lazarus illustrates the common jewish people
who the pharisees despised, but turned back to be disciples of Jesus. (see Luke 18:11,John 7:49, Matt 21:31,32)
That they were dead was also symbolic and described the changed circumstances - them as formed despised,
came to reach a favored position, and the ones who earlier seemed to be favored, were now rejected by God
and became tormented by the Judgement-messages told by the ones they had despised. (Acts 5:33, 7:54)
The 2 passages in Revelations also looks very obvious to speak about an eternal toment.
But wouldn't these verses also be contraticting to the condition of the deads in Sheol/hades?
I have also found an explanation of these verses: I quote:
What kind of "torment" is descibed in these passages?
Its worth noticing that the same greek basic word used in Rev.11:10, about 'prophets tormenting the ones
living on earth'
This torment was caused by the revealing and humiliating messages that these prophets preached.
Rev.14:9-11 says that the ones who worship "the beast and its picture" will be "tormented with fire and sulphur".
This can't mean concious torment after death, since "the deads knows nothing" and can therefore not feel
any pain. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
They must feel this pain while they are still alive. What torments them, is that the servants of God preaches that the ones
who worship "the beast and its picture" will suffer the second death [gehenna], illustrated by "the lake, burning
with fire and sulphur". The smoke in matter of their annihilation ascends forever because the annihilation is
forever and never forgotten.
What does it mean when Rev.20:10 tells that the Devil will be "tormented day and night forever and ever" in
"the lake of fire and sulphur"?
According to Rev.21:8 is the "lake burning with fire and sulphur" identical with "the second death".
That the Devil is "tormented" there forever, must mean that there is no deliverance for him, he will be captured
there forever in an eternal death.
ps.: i apologize that my former message accidently was posted twice... sorry!
I understand what you mean!
Don't misunderstand me - i'm not playing around with strange theories or whatever!
I agree with you to only read the Bible!
I believe that the Bible - and nothing else - is the true inspired word of God!
But its important to be aware that some passages (especially the Revelation) is written symbolic and illustrating, and
comparing it with rest of the Bible to find what it expains about itself.
I'm glad that you mentioned the 3 passages in the Bible that seems to speak of an eternal torment.
The first one, in Luke 16:19-31:
This story of he rich man and Lazarus is not to be understood litteraly, since it is an illustration - just like
Jesus often used illustrations and hyberbels to illustrate a situation or problem.
If this illustration was litteraly, then the Bible would be contradicting to compare with Ecclesiastes 9:5:
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are concious of nothing at all,
neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."
9:10: ".. for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol the place which you are going"
Try also Genesis 3:19 and Psalms 146:4
Since the passages mentioned before tells that a dead man is unconsious, not aware of anyting, then the
illustration in Luke must be an illustration. Doesnt it sound logic?
I have just read an explanation of this illustration: I quote:
"The rich man" illustrates the pharisees. (verse 14) The beggar Lazarus illustrates the common jewish people
who the pharisees despised, but turned back to be disciples of Jesus. (see Luke 18:11,John 7:49, Matt 21:31,32)
That they were dead was also symbolic and described the changed circumstances - them as formed despised,
came to reach a favored position, and the ones who earlier seemed to be favored, were now rejected by God
and became tormented by the Judgement-messages told by the ones they had despised. (Acts 5:33, 7:54)
The 2 passages in Revelations also looks very obvious to speak about an eternal toment.
But wouldn't these verses also be contraticting to the condition of the deads in Sheol/hades?
I have also found an explanation of these verses: I quote:
What kind of "torment" is descibed in these passages?
Its worth noticing that the same greek basic word used in Rev.11:10, about 'prophets tormenting the ones
living on earth'
This torment was caused by the revealing and humiliating messages that these prophets preached.
Rev.14:9-11 says that the ones who worship "the beast and its picture" will be "tormented with fire and sulphur".
This can't mean concious torment after death, since "the deads knows nothing" and can therefore not feel
any pain. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
They must feel this pain while they are still alive. What torments them, is that the servants of God preaches that the ones
who worship "the beast and its picture" will suffer the second death [gehenna], illustrated by "the lake, burning
with fire and sulphur". The smoke in matter of their annihilation ascends forever because the annihilation is
forever and never forgotten.
What does it mean when Rev.20:10 tells that the Devil will be "tormented day and night forever and ever" in
"the lake of fire and sulphur"?
According to Rev.21:8 is the "lake burning with fire and sulphur" identical with "the second death".
That the Devil is "tormented" there forever, must mean that there is no deliverance for him, he will be captured
there forever in an eternal death.
ps.: i apologize that my former message accidently was posted twice... sorry!
iak - iak sakkak!
iak - iak shaxul!
iak - iak sakkak!
iak - iak belzebul!
iak - iak shaxul!
iak - iak sakkak!
iak - iak belzebul!
I believe that the Bible - and nothing else - is the true inspired word of God!
now read your sentence slowly, very slowly, at least three times. then please think. if you are not able to think, maybe you shouldn't post. sorry.
now read your sentence slowly, very slowly, at least three times. then please think. if you are not able to think, maybe you shouldn't post. sorry.
MZ1453: (where does your name come from?)
Wow.. where do you have all your knowledge from..? I mean your posts are pretty deep...! Have you studied theology or something? I mean you know the hebrew and greek words and so.. sure, one can look them up in a dictionary or internet interlinear translation but your posts seem to be written from scratch.
I too thought and read about this topic and it is true that it is not that clear from the bible. Your arguments sound really plausible (loving God - eternatl punishment..). I also thought of that a sin has a punishment and if someone who sinned has to suffer eternal punishment then one sins punishment is eternal hell (cause infinity devided by something is still infinity).. so..
I read http://www.icoc.ch/upload/Rethinking%20Our%20View%20of%20Hell2--Jones.doc and it is quite convicting..
Well.. some points include that eternal death can also mean that you are really death.. your soul dies. Black. Nothing more.. So that would fit with the second death.. It will be a place with pain but you will be destroyed like when you are burned.. you then die. This is the second death..
And another point is that if God gives eternal life then normally you don't have eternal life except it is given from God. Eternal life in hell is also eternal life.. (ok.. this argument isn't really backed up.. life could be used as positive word in original.. don't know..)
Well.. I'm not sure about it cause it's not very clear out of the bible but it is a possible interpretation (as I'm not sure about earth was done in 5 billion years or 7 days by God..).
But I don't think that these questions really matter.. I think the point is that it is important if you come to heaver or hell.. as Jesus died a cruel death for the people to have a chance to come to heaven..
Wow.. where do you have all your knowledge from..? I mean your posts are pretty deep...! Have you studied theology or something? I mean you know the hebrew and greek words and so.. sure, one can look them up in a dictionary or internet interlinear translation but your posts seem to be written from scratch.
I too thought and read about this topic and it is true that it is not that clear from the bible. Your arguments sound really plausible (loving God - eternatl punishment..). I also thought of that a sin has a punishment and if someone who sinned has to suffer eternal punishment then one sins punishment is eternal hell (cause infinity devided by something is still infinity).. so..
I read http://www.icoc.ch/upload/Rethinking%20Our%20View%20of%20Hell2--Jones.doc and it is quite convicting..
Well.. some points include that eternal death can also mean that you are really death.. your soul dies. Black. Nothing more.. So that would fit with the second death.. It will be a place with pain but you will be destroyed like when you are burned.. you then die. This is the second death..
And another point is that if God gives eternal life then normally you don't have eternal life except it is given from God. Eternal life in hell is also eternal life.. (ok.. this argument isn't really backed up.. life could be used as positive word in original.. don't know..)
Well.. I'm not sure about it cause it's not very clear out of the bible but it is a possible interpretation (as I'm not sure about earth was done in 5 billion years or 7 days by God..).
But I don't think that these questions really matter.. I think the point is that it is important if you come to heaver or hell.. as Jesus died a cruel death for the people to have a chance to come to heaven..
