hardware class compos instead of platform compos?
category: general [glöplog]
OH MY GOD.. IT'S SCALI!
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the audience matters everywhere. most people makes demos since they want other people watch it.
Apparently not. I'm sure the creators of Amiga PPC, XBox, Mac and other 'exotic' demos are well aware of the fact that not many sceners will be able to watch the demo at home. This does not stop them from creating these demos, and entering them in compos.
maybe we should ask them :)
i do: hey, are there any sceners around who don't want other people to watch their demos??
i do: hey, are there any sceners around who don't want other people to watch their demos??
I think you are caught up in the logic.
There's a difference between accepting that not many sceners may see your demo after the compo, and not wanting other people to watch your demo.
I'm sure all sceners want people to watch their demos, that probably explains why exotic demos tend to get Windows ports or video releases.
So please don't get caught up in bad reverse logic. People might think you are a troll.
There's a difference between accepting that not many sceners may see your demo after the compo, and not wanting other people to watch your demo.
I'm sure all sceners want people to watch their demos, that probably explains why exotic demos tend to get Windows ports or video releases.
So please don't get caught up in bad reverse logic. People might think you are a troll.
SCALI SHOOTS, SCALI STRIKES, SCALI SCORES!
if 'being a troll' means having a logic different from yours, then i'm happy to be a troll :))
I won't go back to the main topic of this thread, since it is obviously pointless and will acheive nothing constructive.. (not that I have anything against a good old flamewar ;).
My opinion about "audiences" : In my simplified view of the world, there are two types of people at demo parties - sceners and gamers. The first ones are productive and attend their party mainly to release their productions and to watch other productions. The latter ones are not productive and come to parties to play quake (or whatever happens to be popular nowadays) and may like to watch a scene compo or two.
I don't give a fuck about the latter ones, and the first ones are mostly ok with watching stuff at a party that they may not be able to watch in realtime at home.
There is a third type of audience that sometimes is mentioned - the scene hangarounds. The ones who have lots of opinions but no releases. The ones that "discuss" everything here on pouet while serious sceners are coding, drawing, modelling, making music or having a ilfe. These are far worse than gamers, because gamers walk around with big stickers on their forehead saying "gamer", so nobody takes them seriously. The hangarounds, however, tend to be mistaken for real sceners.
I will never respect this group of people. and I won't lift a finger to please them.
We have seen that neither quake, the internet, windows , mp3 music or 3d acceleration has managed to kill the scene. What would kill the scene would be the increased percentage of "sceners" who at best prooduce pouet bbs threads.
<Disclaimer>
This post is not aimed directly at any of the people taking part in this discussion, nor is it aimed at Optimus.... (well, maybe just a bit). It just camed to mind when people started saying "think about the audience" etc. Also, there was a oneliner posted on mac.scene.org saying something like "great site! Hope that there will be a lot of demos to download!", which just felt so symtomatic.
</Disclaimer>
My opinion about "audiences" : In my simplified view of the world, there are two types of people at demo parties - sceners and gamers. The first ones are productive and attend their party mainly to release their productions and to watch other productions. The latter ones are not productive and come to parties to play quake (or whatever happens to be popular nowadays) and may like to watch a scene compo or two.
I don't give a fuck about the latter ones, and the first ones are mostly ok with watching stuff at a party that they may not be able to watch in realtime at home.
There is a third type of audience that sometimes is mentioned - the scene hangarounds. The ones who have lots of opinions but no releases. The ones that "discuss" everything here on pouet while serious sceners are coding, drawing, modelling, making music or having a ilfe. These are far worse than gamers, because gamers walk around with big stickers on their forehead saying "gamer", so nobody takes them seriously. The hangarounds, however, tend to be mistaken for real sceners.
I will never respect this group of people. and I won't lift a finger to please them.
We have seen that neither quake, the internet, windows , mp3 music or 3d acceleration has managed to kill the scene. What would kill the scene would be the increased percentage of "sceners" who at best prooduce pouet bbs threads.
<Disclaimer>
This post is not aimed directly at any of the people taking part in this discussion, nor is it aimed at Optimus.... (well, maybe just a bit). It just camed to mind when people started saying "think about the audience" etc. Also, there was a oneliner posted on mac.scene.org saying something like "great site! Hope that there will be a lot of demos to download!", which just felt so symtomatic.
</Disclaimer>
What about the people who just enjoy watching the demos?
There is a certain person who understands and appreciates the hard work and effort that goes into the production, and who also admires the coders, graphicians, musicians etc.
I do agree with you that network gamers are a bain at times but you cant moan at production "watchers" after all a production is made to be watched and heard whether the person viewing it has coder knowledge or not.
There is a certain person who understands and appreciates the hard work and effort that goes into the production, and who also admires the coders, graphicians, musicians etc.
I do agree with you that network gamers are a bain at times but you cant moan at production "watchers" after all a production is made to be watched and heard whether the person viewing it has coder knowledge or not.
I didn't say I have anything against non-sceners watching demos. Not at all.
What I do have something against is non-sceners butting in to stuff that isn't their buisness... like discussions about the scene's direction, what's ok and what's not ok.. as if the scene was there for their pleasure. Consumers, as they were accurately called by someone making a similar point...
What I do have something against is non-sceners butting in to stuff that isn't their buisness... like discussions about the scene's direction, what's ok and what's not ok.. as if the scene was there for their pleasure. Consumers, as they were accurately called by someone making a similar point...
Point taken :)
What about letting the coders work on the platform that they like most? Not all coders want to write on PCs, for whatever reasons they have. Just as not all coders want to write on Macs.
I think diversity is good. And coders have the right to pick the platform they want.
I think they should also have the right to compete against similar platforms if they want.
You also let OpenGL and Direct3D compete in the same compo, don't you? Or shader-demos vs non-shader demos?
That is probably a larger gap than between Mac and PC demos in general.
Shame that organizers these days are not clued in about such technical matters. Perhaps it's because they are actually from this "hangaround" group, rather than actual sceners, with a productive past?
I think diversity is good. And coders have the right to pick the platform they want.
I think they should also have the right to compete against similar platforms if they want.
You also let OpenGL and Direct3D compete in the same compo, don't you? Or shader-demos vs non-shader demos?
That is probably a larger gap than between Mac and PC demos in general.
Shame that organizers these days are not clued in about such technical matters. Perhaps it's because they are actually from this "hangaround" group, rather than actual sceners, with a productive past?
Sorry, I should have said 'some organizers', I certainly don't want to generalize, there are still plenty of fine organizers around ofcourse.
You also let OpenGL and Direct3D compete in the same compo, don't you?
They don't need separate machines, just the necessary drivers.
Or shader-demos vs non-shader demos?
Compo machines are mostly near-top-notch, which means they can run both.
Comparison between such severe differences is irrelevant and unnecessary. If you make a great demo with software rendering and you manage the crowd go "wow" without mentioning it all over the screen (or better, mentioning it only at the end, see Leitmotiv), then who the hell cares about platforms/technologies/OS-s/API-s? Just make it good, dammit. (This is the hardest part actually.)
Incompatibility tho is another thing, but not downloading a demo (assumed that i have a pc) 'cos it's Mac is much better than downloading a PC one just to find out it's XYZ-only, while I only have non-XYZ hardware.
They don't need separate machines, just the necessary drivers.
Or shader-demos vs non-shader demos?
Compo machines are mostly near-top-notch, which means they can run both.
Comparison between such severe differences is irrelevant and unnecessary. If you make a great demo with software rendering and you manage the crowd go "wow" without mentioning it all over the screen (or better, mentioning it only at the end, see Leitmotiv), then who the hell cares about platforms/technologies/OS-s/API-s? Just make it good, dammit. (This is the hardest part actually.)
Incompatibility tho is another thing, but not downloading a demo (assumed that i have a pc) 'cos it's Mac is much better than downloading a PC one just to find out it's XYZ-only, while I only have non-XYZ hardware.
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They don't need separate machines, just the necessary drivers.
That's not the point. The point is that they have larger differences than PC and Mac, both using a Radeon and OGL.
I don't think the separate machines were ever an issue? People volunteered to provide a Mac for the compo.
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Compo machines are mostly near-top-notch, which means they can run both.
That's not the point either. It's not like non-shader demos have to compete in the wild-compo, because they're different, even though they're more different than Macs and PCs.
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then who the hell cares about platforms/technologies/OS-s/API-s?
Only certain organizers, apparently, who are very inconsistent about what they allow in their compos.
scali:
Shame that organizers these days are not clued in about such technical matters. Perhaps it's because they are actually from this "hangaround" group, rather than actual sceners, with a productive past?"
>60% of the BP orga team are farbrausch members. The rest are members of Haujobb, Smash Designs, Salva Mea, Black Maiden (and some smaller groups). And many of those are actively organizing demo partys for up to 9 years now.
Non-sceners. Hangaround groups. No active past. Yeah. :)
If you think we are that incompetent and non-scenish, why do you even bother about the lame LAN-party called breakpoint instead of just going somewhere else?
Shame that organizers these days are not clued in about such technical matters. Perhaps it's because they are actually from this "hangaround" group, rather than actual sceners, with a productive past?"
>60% of the BP orga team are farbrausch members. The rest are members of Haujobb, Smash Designs, Salva Mea, Black Maiden (and some smaller groups). And many of those are actively organizing demo partys for up to 9 years now.
Non-sceners. Hangaround groups. No active past. Yeah. :)
If you think we are that incompetent and non-scenish, why do you even bother about the lame LAN-party called breakpoint instead of just going somewhere else?
Why do you even think I'm talking about you?
gammawave: by audience, of course, i mean sceners (after all, this is a demoscene portal or what, how gamers come into the picture?), and mostly those who make demos, or made demos (or will make demos :)
i'm not at all against combined mac-pc compos _if_ i can watch the mac prods too at home. since i don't have a mac (and i doubt i will have one in the near future) this means a pc port. and some of you said that indeed they will make pc ports of their mac demos; from this it seems to me that porting mac demos to pc isn't a big problem (i guess quite few of you code the mac demos in asm :) - but then, again, why not simply hold a pc compo, where some of the entries run on mac too?
i'm not at all against combined mac-pc compos _if_ i can watch the mac prods too at home. since i don't have a mac (and i doubt i will have one in the near future) this means a pc port. and some of you said that indeed they will make pc ports of their mac demos; from this it seems to me that porting mac demos to pc isn't a big problem (i guess quite few of you code the mac demos in asm :) - but then, again, why not simply hold a pc compo, where some of the entries run on mac too?
Scamp:
Funny thing is.. I havent met any breakpoint organizers on IRC the last days that is active in any of those groups you meantion that are against a combined democompo.
How many are in those 'smal'lgroups, exept for you that is?
Funny thing is.. I havent met any breakpoint organizers on IRC the last days that is active in any of those groups you meantion that are against a combined democompo.
How many are in those 'smal'lgroups, exept for you that is?
blala, well.. I have a stationary pc and an iBook... and I'm more likely to bring the iBook to a party. Since most of us always end up putting at least some final touches to the demo at the party, it would be nice to be able to do that on the computer we bring to the party. I'll happily build a pc version of the demo as soon as I get home from the party...
well, if every mac demo will have a pc version too (for example within a month or two, like "final versions") then i don't see any possible argument against holding a combined compo.
It's not like non-shader demos have to compete in the wild-compo, because they're different
imagine: non-shader demos in fact run on shader hardware.
i go even further: softrender demos run on shader hardware, too...
imagine: non-shader demos in fact run on shader hardware.
i go even further: softrender demos run on shader hardware, too...
blala, ofcourse the port should be optional.
Or we should stop releasing demos as public domain and begin to charge a fee per download, active sceners could trade downloads etc.. Yeah, this is a great idea... Or people should just stop bullshitting about a prods platform, and accept it as it is, if you like it that much that you cant live without it - buy the platform.
Or we should stop releasing demos as public domain and begin to charge a fee per download, active sceners could trade downloads etc.. Yeah, this is a great idea... Or people should just stop bullshitting about a prods platform, and accept it as it is, if you like it that much that you cant live without it - buy the platform.
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imagine: non-shader demos in fact run on shader hardware.
i go even further: softrender demos run on shader hardware, too...
Shader demos don't run on non-shader hardware though, and I still know many sceners with non-shader hardware, you want the shader demos in the wild compo then? That might actually be a good idea, give the Mac demos some decent competition ;)
Tell ya what, let's kick those pre-rendered animations and homevideos out of the wild-compo too... And let's rename it to 'combinded democompo' or something!
Vote here: http://www.scene.org/discusspoll.php?item=45
Scali:
you want the shader demos in the wild compo then?
now, finally that's not a bad idea :))
anyway i'm sorry, but it seems to me that it is pointless to argue with you...
arneweisse: it's hard to make porting mandatory if ports appear only weeks or months after the party :) - but it would be nice to make it an accepted practice.
and of course, i accept every platform - but the discussion is not about accepting platforms, but holding combined compos or not. i don't want to compete with prods i can't watch on my computer - i would find that quite unfair.
you want the shader demos in the wild compo then?
now, finally that's not a bad idea :))
anyway i'm sorry, but it seems to me that it is pointless to argue with you...
arneweisse: it's hard to make porting mandatory if ports appear only weeks or months after the party :) - but it would be nice to make it an accepted practice.
and of course, i accept every platform - but the discussion is not about accepting platforms, but holding combined compos or not. i don't want to compete with prods i can't watch on my computer - i would find that quite unfair.