pouët.net

As I was cleaning out my desk I decided to finally finish working on some of my heart-burning prods.

Let's begin with the simplest ones, namely SavageCharts4. It's been in the drawer for ever now, and thus its contents have become obsolete. Why didn't it work out? Well, in spite of all the promises given by so many (I'll refrain from pointing my finger at you), SavageCharts3 has created almost no traffic. That was extremely discouraging, so I put it on the “never again” shelf. But! As I said, I was doing some spring cleaning and I updated the charts ESPECIALLY FOR YOU!

During the last few months many great productions were released and it would ache me if I had not given you a chance to vote. Thus, I encourage you – vote! The deadline for the votes is March 31st. SavageCharts will come out a week after the deadline regardless of your vote response.

You are welcome to vote on-line:
http://savagecharts.futuris-art.com/v.php
or via the classic voting machine:
http://www.zazz.pl/3490

Remember, you do not need to cast a vote in all categories. Just vote in those you know anything about.
And in the mean time, I will continue my spring cleaning and I promise to release some overdue demos soon.

Finally... yes! tak! :)

voting now :)

'best slideshow' (unless you mean demos that run with shit framerates on my mediocre hardware i havent seen any slideshow since decades), 'best artist in image processing' (the photoshoppage on pouet?) ... ok! charts *yawn* :P

1. Would be reasonable to have such charts in January, to make ranking of best productions/sceners from one year only - SavageCharts 2008. If you allow to vote for prods from any year, it doesn't make sense at all, it entails small votes quantity, and finally makes all the ratings warped.

2. Why no small intros there? Categories like 64B can be omitted because of low releases quantity, but 256B (leading sizecoding category, as significant as 4KB and 64KB) and 1KB (fruitful lately) should be more welcome than the ones maali mentioned.

I love charts. But seems there are several categories that can be combined.
Like common GFX,Music,ascii artist,editor,textwriter,party categories for Amiga & PC. Maybe even Slideshow,musicdisk and diskmag, seeing as there are so few made theese days. And can be compared to a certain point despite the hardware differences.

Last time for the scoopex chart, only 18 pple have participated on, even if it was on bitefellas.org news and so here .. in big or more...
When you see there 4000 visitors per day , just imagine how you are lazzy ,
Lazzy like my ass.
So before trying to explain your ideas or whatever.. participate first.

you fill up 2x10x10 (probably even more) empty textfields up then

amiga: best 3D artist: Adok.


oook...

a) charts are unpopular in this day and age. this is due to the way the scene has changed over the years. it's more about camaraderie than strictly competition - you don't see that many fuckings around these these days. also, demos themselves have developed into an artform, which allows many different styles of demos to blossom. this means it's more difficult to rank them. furthermore, if we were to rank demos mainly by their coding feats like we used to, the problem is it's harder to tell whether the code in a demo is excellent or not, because those feats are less obviously visible these days. it was easy when the only question was who has the fastest vectors or the most bobs. (an exception are the 256b's and such that basically have no other content but code, but i don't think those are as significant as pirx would like to believe.) but i digress. people don't care about charts.

b) a lot of chart editors seem to be living in the past when it comes to the categories. people really don't care that much about slideshows for example, and even if they do, 1) there aren't enough of them released for people to develop an overview of the best ones, and 2) they're not that remarkable as releases that you'd remember them well enough to cast a vote. the scene is largely based on parties now, and it's a whole different thing to vote for that great demo you remember seeing on the big screen with your mates than to vote for the odd musicdisk you glanced at while chatting on irc.

c) you're also digging a hole for yourself by stating that the thing will be released no matter what. most people probably know the charts won't be at all representative - even if you removed the polish bias, there simply wouldn't be enough votes. this in itself is discouraging for potential voters, since they don't feel like their vote would mean anything in the big picture.

d) if you really really wanted this thing to work, you'd need to kiss (keep it simple, stupid). have just a couple of charts that people can vote for easily, and make the voting simple. that is, s-i-m-p-l-e. i told you a few issues ago that not having an online voting system was stupid. implementing that was a good start, but it looks clumsy. this is the internet. people don't want to spend any time on something they don't care about. the best option would be to have a simple voting box embedded in the news item on pouet & buttfellas so people could vote with one mouse click without leaving the page they were on, but that's not possible as far as i know. you get the idea tho.

e) finally, another thing that has weakened the need for charts is the availability of other ranks and titles these days. the fact that the scene is so party-centric also means the party results are often respected (if not always accepted), and in addition there's the scene.org awards. although the awards are hardly representative either, and make some comical flaws in their nominations each year, they are the definitive "best of the year" roundup now. which is why pirx's suggestion of having a once-a-year chart mag just wouldn't work.

adding to e), another thing that the party-centricity has caused is that even if you'd get a representative sample of sceners to vote, people would automatically know what the results of the charts would be since there's two major parties release-wise (breakpoint and assembly), and all the best productions are released at those, and it'd be the same people voting, except for assembly where a lot of the voters aren't sceners per se, but this sentence is too long already, and i'm hungry.

Cool there's my name on the coders drop-down list! - I was kinda surprised, because I forced nobody to vote for me :P

Reed has incredibly much leading. :)

reed has slightly less kerning tho!

I agree that the online vote system nowadays is a good idea. I will point out some of my remarks:

1. It is too complex with much too many ranks, imo. Fortunately you have only 2 platforms (afaIrc)...
2. Unfortunately nowadays ppl are such lazy asses so they do not want to "waste" their time for more-that-2-minutes-votes, otherwise you have to include a free beer per voting person if you want to keep them longer on voting.
3. The World Charts and so on died too, soon after being reborn. This is your fate too and you know it. The scene has changed (for better or not - it is not important here), as Reed spoke.
4. The demoscene has grown so we have a lot of productions for every platform. Personally I do not watch all the demos out there and I guess there are lots of dudes as me. All in all, I simply do not have too much time to watch the demos in order to vote. That's why ppl vot, for exemple of Amiga, for the prods from the late 90s. This is also a point to remember.
5. I wish you nevertheless a good issue hoping that you will have a good number of clicks.

Cheers!

charts are just uninteresting cos only a few people actually bother to fill them in. Next to that.. the people who DO fill in the fields usually about 50% of these persons are total baboons (e.g. a magic/nahkolor who still lives in the demoscene of 1994 mentally or a adok/hugi who rather reads about dr Mengele's notes in creating superhumans rather than watching ANY demo), making the resulting charts even more uninteresting and subject to invalidity *vicious circle, yadda-yadda + what reed said*

I do not vote : we are not in the list :)

1) Charts are for interested this people (for these which live with scene and not only tell about her)
2) This is last issue
3) In matter list to choice - You read the instructions
"If your choice is NOT found in the DropDown list, type your choice into the text box"
4) Sorry for my weak English ;)

5) If results have to be different, you can this change by voting ;)

Biter: better focus on Savage#10 magazine after Charts#4
;-)
never quit!

(and dont mind Reed he doesnt mean it as hard as writes it down :)

Is reed being harsh? I found his message quite reasonable and spot-on.

magic had altijd een 3 voor begrijpend lezen op de basisschool, zo blijkt maar weer ;)

biter: your reply would suggest one or more of the following: 1) you didn't read my post at all, 2) you didn't understand it, or 3) you don't care enough to bother. if that is the case, why would you start a project that a) needs some insight into the current dynamics and preferences of the scene, b) needs thorough planning of categories and mechanics due to the several failed charts during the past years, and c) relies on getting input from the target audience? if you make something that lives through input, you need to I) understand that the audience is always right, II) pick the most useful feedback, think it through and disregard the less useful ones, and III) work your way through multiple ordered lists.

magic: if you could read beyond your overall conception of me, you'd realise i was trying to help the poor guy out, not insult him. a pat on the back helps no one.

Reed is right in many things. For most of the sceners charts are not
important anymore. But for some of them it is still interesting.
I agree that cause of some other possibilities to vote like the scene.org
awards it is also much harder to get votes.

For me charts always were just for fun and I never took them to serious.
It is funny to see what some sceners think is hot or is not.
Indeed nowadays it is hard to compare productions but sometimes it also
was in the past more a "i like" or "that are my friends" charts.

Sad to hear that Biter will not continue - I always like the Savage Charts
as it was done with fun and love and the design and gfx always ruled.
But in the end votes counts and these were far to less - so this much work
will sadly not be appreciated.

Maybe the only chance is to bring people together who are interested in doing it
instead of single productions like Showtime and Savage Charts.

Reed just offered his help and as I know others did it too. So these were just
some words to get these project run and keep alive. Changes are necassary. The online
voting system is great for example.

But maybe this kind of art is really dead as the votes are to less. As said before
it should be mainly seen as fun but with 18 votes a charts is useless.

presenting ones point as the only possible one isn't always the best solution, and just that single fact is some kind of rude as well, no matter how creative and ''brilliant'' those ideas would be. hitler thought the same way as well! :P

at the moment, if you don't care, just move along and don't vote. if you care, you have the opportunity. according to statistics, it is needed 15+ people (only 15 people, sic!) to make their voting-results representative group. any problem bouncing it up to 100? biter's got half of that amount at the time. probably would be easier if some of you encouraged the rest and not grouched and complain all the time. probably as much as 100 people would be higher amount that voted than in scene.org awards that you so notoricly mention, or don't? :)

conclusion: move your asses, not your mouths! :)

I seriously wanted to vote, but I was kind of turned off when I saw the mess that the voting form was and the huge overdose of irrelevant categories.