Crisis: Money As Debt
category: general [glöplog]
dubmood: I did the exact same thing as you did; dropping shit on people, complaining that they said nothing interesting, and yet not bringing anything of interest yourself.
You set the level yourself.
You set the level yourself.
@dubmood:
In no statement I did defend "capitalism". So you're the moron here.
The discussion is about the terminal flaw in the existing monetary system -
that is creating money out of debt, charging interest on stuff created out of thin air!
You DID notice that all forms of "communism" tried yet, used MONEY, did you?
Also I'm not talking about all the bloody "isms" ... I'd rather get rid of 'em because they
represent thinking in predefined paradigm boxes.
That's what the makers & shakers count you on being trapped into!
--- moving on
The heads of the central banks are not elected by the people!
The central banks are owned by a conglomerate of private banks with the premission not to guard
the medium of change/trade but to gain profit.
A state can't have any debt if it would be the issuer of the money supply.
Contra argument on that is the Weimar Republic, of course.
That's why this hypothetical gov-branch often called "Monetative" MUST be held accountable
for it's actions regarding the medium of change. Therefore in addition to the legislative, the executive
and the judicative this new "monetative" should become the 4th pillar of a working nowadays - democracy. But where in the world can you find a "democracy" where at least the three already
existing gov-branches are elected by the people - I mean directly, not by representatives?
Doesn't exist - hence no democracy!
On the other hand there are quite some people convinced by the "free money" model by
Silvio Gesell.
In no statement I did defend "capitalism". So you're the moron here.
The discussion is about the terminal flaw in the existing monetary system -
that is creating money out of debt, charging interest on stuff created out of thin air!
You DID notice that all forms of "communism" tried yet, used MONEY, did you?
Also I'm not talking about all the bloody "isms" ... I'd rather get rid of 'em because they
represent thinking in predefined paradigm boxes.
That's what the makers & shakers count you on being trapped into!
--- moving on
The heads of the central banks are not elected by the people!
The central banks are owned by a conglomerate of private banks with the premission not to guard
the medium of change/trade but to gain profit.
A state can't have any debt if it would be the issuer of the money supply.
Contra argument on that is the Weimar Republic, of course.
That's why this hypothetical gov-branch often called "Monetative" MUST be held accountable
for it's actions regarding the medium of change. Therefore in addition to the legislative, the executive
and the judicative this new "monetative" should become the 4th pillar of a working nowadays - democracy. But where in the world can you find a "democracy" where at least the three already
existing gov-branches are elected by the people - I mean directly, not by representatives?
Doesn't exist - hence no democracy!
On the other hand there are quite some people convinced by the "free money" model by
Silvio Gesell.
Puryx: read the thread from the beginning and you will see that what you say is bullshit. you came in on the moron level wich was fucking way lower than anything being said by anyone.
dodge: I used capitalism as an example of the level of your arguments against communism, it had nothing to do with discussing the forms of communism being used yet did it?
dodge: I used capitalism as an example of the level of your arguments against communism, it had nothing to do with discussing the forms of communism being used yet did it?
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In sweden, Afaik, the head of the central bank is elected by the goverment and not by any private bankers, maybe this have changed by now but this was atleast the case when we voted no for the euro as it was one of the arguments the NO side used since this was not the case in the European Union. But I guess that counts as being elected by representatives, but as you already said yourself there is afaik no country where the judicative pillar is elected directly by the people so why even dream about the monetative. Still, better that its elected by representatives than by private bankers, no?The heads of the central banks are not elected by the people!
When the representatives - like it is here in FRG (BRD)- are a quasi dictatorship in itself, submissive and dependent to the banks and corporations (i.e. VW & "big pharma"), their "choice" on who will be the head of the "Bundesbank" - which in turn is part of the ECB - most propably will not be as objective as it should be.
So, in order to get a decent monetary system in place the foundation must be laid by a _real_ democracy.
For the complicated example of so called "Germany" there is no such thing as a real democracy, although
the basic constitutional law (which is NO constitution - but that's another matter) says
"all power goes from the people" - which in fact doesn't.
That's why there exists a catch phrase here that talks of a "Parteien- und Justitzdiktatur" -
meaning a de facto dictatorship of political parties and the judicative branch.
So, in order to get a decent monetary system in place the foundation must be laid by a _real_ democracy.
For the complicated example of so called "Germany" there is no such thing as a real democracy, although
the basic constitutional law (which is NO constitution - but that's another matter) says
"all power goes from the people" - which in fact doesn't.
That's why there exists a catch phrase here that talks of a "Parteien- und Justitzdiktatur" -
meaning a de facto dictatorship of political parties and the judicative branch.
Also that would not resolve the technical problem on how the medium of change is issued.
The money you and I would use to exchange against goods and services should NOT be
created by "selling" an IOU (bond) of the state (gov) to a private bank that in turn prints a value on
paper, delivers these NOTES to the financial dept. and charges interest on that.
That's how it simplified works f.e. in the US. It's a little (but just a little) different in the EU "empire".
The money you and I would use to exchange against goods and services should NOT be
created by "selling" an IOU (bond) of the state (gov) to a private bank that in turn prints a value on
paper, delivers these NOTES to the financial dept. and charges interest on that.
That's how it simplified works f.e. in the US. It's a little (but just a little) different in the EU "empire".
by "private bank" I meant the FED of course. And it is a bloody cartel of private banks.
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Earth has had some fucked up climates in the past, like most of the atmosphere literally burning after meteor impacts, ice ages, volcanic eruptions, etc., and the ecosystem recovers every time to a state where the Earth is crawling with life.
Of course, if you don't think of "meteor impacts, ice ages, volcanic eruptions, etc." as "we're all fucked", then no argument will be ok to you except for a total universe destruction :-)
No, you're afraid of the CONSEQUENCES of disrupting "the balance", not the immediate effects of the thing that disrupts the balance. The immediate effect of building massive solar panels in the desert is that we get to look at shiny black solar panels instead of sand and rocks, which isn't that bad for us. The immediate effect of a meteor hitting us hard is that the atmosphere burns and the Earth is completely covered in ash and dust and continents break apart and so on. It's not the result of "the balance" being upset, but you might think that if anything COULD upset "the balance" then that would be it. As it turns out the Earth's ecosystem is so robust that it's survived several disasters of that magnitude, so why would you imagine that moving some heat from one place to another could have disastrous consequences down the line?
Being irrational about it won't save the dolphins. ;)
Being irrational about it won't save the dolphins. ;)
“We need to get some broad based support, to capture the public’s imagination… So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements and make little mention of any doubts… Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.”
- Stephen Schneider, Stanford Professor of Climatology, lead author of many IPCC reports
“Current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class - involving high meat intake,
use of fossil fuels, appliances, air-conditioning, and suburban housing - are not sustainable.”
- Maurice Strong, Rio Earth Summit
"One America burdens the earth much more than twenty Bangladeshes. This is a terrible thing to say in order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it's just as bad not to say it."
- Jacques Cousteau, UNESCO Courier
"Effective execution of Agenda 21 will require a profound reorientation of all human society, unlike anything the world has ever experienced - a major shift in the priorities of both governments and individuals and an unprecedented redeployment of human and financial resources. This shift will demand that a concern for the environmental consequences of every human action be integrated into individual and collective decision-making at every level."
- UN Agenda 21
"The only way to get our society to truly change is to frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe."
- emeritus professor Daniel Botkin
"Childbearing should be a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license. All potential parents should be required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing."
- David Brower, first Executive Director of the Sierra Club
"We've got to ride this global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy."
- Timothy Wirth, President of the UN Foundation
"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis."
- David Rockefeller, Club of Rome executive manager
There are just too many people for this new Global governance to manage effectively. So now's the perfect time to begin culling the herd.
The brilliant thing about it is that within the space of 8 - 10 yrs, the general public have been made to honestly believe that their very existence will bring a fantastic and sudden end to Earth itself. You have to give these guys kudos for that at least :)
- Stephen Schneider, Stanford Professor of Climatology, lead author of many IPCC reports
“Current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class - involving high meat intake,
use of fossil fuels, appliances, air-conditioning, and suburban housing - are not sustainable.”
- Maurice Strong, Rio Earth Summit
"One America burdens the earth much more than twenty Bangladeshes. This is a terrible thing to say in order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it's just as bad not to say it."
- Jacques Cousteau, UNESCO Courier
"Effective execution of Agenda 21 will require a profound reorientation of all human society, unlike anything the world has ever experienced - a major shift in the priorities of both governments and individuals and an unprecedented redeployment of human and financial resources. This shift will demand that a concern for the environmental consequences of every human action be integrated into individual and collective decision-making at every level."
- UN Agenda 21
"The only way to get our society to truly change is to frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe."
- emeritus professor Daniel Botkin
"Childbearing should be a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license. All potential parents should be required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing."
- David Brower, first Executive Director of the Sierra Club
"We've got to ride this global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy."
- Timothy Wirth, President of the UN Foundation
"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis."
- David Rockefeller, Club of Rome executive manager
There are just too many people for this new Global governance to manage effectively. So now's the perfect time to begin culling the herd.
The brilliant thing about it is that within the space of 8 - 10 yrs, the general public have been made to honestly believe that their very existence will bring a fantastic and sudden end to Earth itself. You have to give these guys kudos for that at least :)
friend nytrik said:
I thought money were created by states when it was needed, I didn't know at all banks could do that because they have a magical hat, a magic wand, and "a chart" :). And I didn't know that most of the global money was systematically linked with debts. It's radically different from the whole economic discourse, where we hear money is created by work, where people with debts are looked down.
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Before seeing this film how do you think our system worked ( go on make my day )... If this scares you never study finance or even get interest in asset based securities.
I thought money were created by states when it was needed, I didn't know at all banks could do that because they have a magical hat, a magic wand, and "a chart" :). And I didn't know that most of the global money was systematically linked with debts. It's radically different from the whole economic discourse, where we hear money is created by work, where people with debts are looked down.
also, I've heard a lot everywhere in the media and discuss that it was known that the subject of the crisis where "founds linked to debts". It is said everywhere: they are nasty rotten bad founds that cause the crisis, but it suggests that aside, there are nice good founds.
We discover here that all the fucking money is debt. I haven't heard that in any media here.
We discover here that all the fucking money is debt. I haven't heard that in any media here.
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I haven't heard that in any media here.
in the same way that you'll wont hear in the media that this entire "crisis" is pretty much an engineered scenario, to not only steal everyone's wealth but also to aid our transition into a new system.
"Effective execution of Agenda 21 will require a profound reorientation of all human society, unlike anything the world has ever experienced - a major shift in the priorities of both governments and individuals and an unprecedented redeployment of human and financial resources. This shift will demand that a concern for the environmental consequences of every human action be integrated into individual and collective decision-making at every level."
- UN Agenda 21
why scare the children, just tell 'em fantasy stories which they can understand
well, luckily we have at least 2 or 3 moderators and columnists in the german language financial media that know the name of the game and are not affraid to write openly about it.
One good example is a column by Raimund Brichta who is an achorman and columnist for N-TV / Telebörse
One good example is a column by Raimund Brichta who is an achorman and columnist for N-TV / Telebörse
one of the things that brought down Enron was the fact that certain companies for whatever reason are allowed to write in money they have not actually earned yet, into the books. It is said that a contract is worth what it promises, but that is not true. What if the project ends up in nothing?
The simple variant is that I promise to mow Krabob's lawn, we do things the proper way and make a witnessed contract that states that I will be paid the sum of 10 Euro for doing krabobs lawn. Now i take that contract to the bank who treats me as if I had 10 euro in my pocket, and if it was substantially larger amounts than in my petty example here, the bank will lend me money on the contract alone (not what i actually have in my pocket).
So. if i break my neck, the contract goes unfulfilled. now what?! The bank took the 10 euro as were they substantiated into value allready and created new money because of them that I put into curculation before I was killed. Krabob gets to keep his money but have to find another guy to do his lawn. Our economy is a dog being fed its own tale at an exponential growth rate because of idiotic hoops like this.
In Denmark we have the whole IT factory case. Yeah ok, he went to far, he simply made up contracts to do the above trickery with, but everybody was fucking in on it, the banks, the top, the entertainer 'elite', and just shut up all along because it had been perfectly legal had the contracts not been made up entirely (had someone else substantiate them with their -as far as imconcerned untill contract fullfillment to the satisfaction of both parties- empty words and promises.
MG said smoke and mirrors. That is all it is. Don't be scared off by arcane priestly jargon. Just as with lawyers it is meant to scare you away from the awful, and embarresingly simple mechanics behind both money, law and politics. neither are a 'science', only in the minds of people who benefit directly from them, or those in awe with the people who benefit directly from them. Calling this shit a science, that would be mocking the people who discovered the atom by endless trial and error, or took us into space IMO.
The simple variant is that I promise to mow Krabob's lawn, we do things the proper way and make a witnessed contract that states that I will be paid the sum of 10 Euro for doing krabobs lawn. Now i take that contract to the bank who treats me as if I had 10 euro in my pocket, and if it was substantially larger amounts than in my petty example here, the bank will lend me money on the contract alone (not what i actually have in my pocket).
So. if i break my neck, the contract goes unfulfilled. now what?! The bank took the 10 euro as were they substantiated into value allready and created new money because of them that I put into curculation before I was killed. Krabob gets to keep his money but have to find another guy to do his lawn. Our economy is a dog being fed its own tale at an exponential growth rate because of idiotic hoops like this.
In Denmark we have the whole IT factory case. Yeah ok, he went to far, he simply made up contracts to do the above trickery with, but everybody was fucking in on it, the banks, the top, the entertainer 'elite', and just shut up all along because it had been perfectly legal had the contracts not been made up entirely (had someone else substantiate them with their -as far as imconcerned untill contract fullfillment to the satisfaction of both parties- empty words and promises.
MG said smoke and mirrors. That is all it is. Don't be scared off by arcane priestly jargon. Just as with lawyers it is meant to scare you away from the awful, and embarresingly simple mechanics behind both money, law and politics. neither are a 'science', only in the minds of people who benefit directly from them, or those in awe with the people who benefit directly from them. Calling this shit a science, that would be mocking the people who discovered the atom by endless trial and error, or took us into space IMO.
Plus, I noted that this smiling character, who salute the goldsmith in the video strangely look like our dear liberal president sarkozy !!!
dubmood:
Yeah... sure...
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you will feel so satisfied with yoursef once again ignoring your complete idiocy and ignorance when discussing this topic.
Yeah... sure...
he and his party members must be getting massive back-handers from mr. Goldsmith to have a grin that large :) I always wondered why Tony Bliar's grin was so big. Good old Mr. Goldsmith, making sure our rulers are happy and comfortable.
Funnily enough, the Queen has the same grin on her ugly little mug too...
and that's in the middle of supposedly one of the world's worst economic downturns. Strange, it's never usually that large!?! She's talking to Sarkozy, btw, maybe they're sharing an in-joke which only they and a select few others know about. :P
Funnily enough, the Queen has the same grin on her ugly little mug too...
and that's in the middle of supposedly one of the world's worst economic downturns. Strange, it's never usually that large!?! She's talking to Sarkozy, btw, maybe they're sharing an in-joke which only they and a select few others know about. :P
oh, wait a minute...it's probably this old joke which her husband is rather fond of...
“If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.”
- Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, patron of the World Wildlife Fund
oh, how we laughed at that one....jolly ho!
“If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.”
- Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, patron of the World Wildlife Fund
oh, how we laughed at that one....jolly ho!
hello: Nice collection of quotes there...
Those grins are signs of reptilian nature.
Quotes are nice, they're irrefutable evidence. :) It's even nicer to read some of the actual documentation which those quotes come from. I don't recommend Agenda 21 just before going to sleep though, unless you enjoy nightmares.
Otinanst: nah, just a sign of an arrogant elite, who managed to barbarically bully their way into power many hundreds of years ago and today still enjoy much of their power, in the shadows and behind the guise of "democracy".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJmTCYmo9g&feature=related
Another good one.
Another good one.
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If you want to invest in your future, buy an allotment and a shotgun.
And what are you going to do when your shotgun inevitably "breaks down"? What are you going to do when you run out of ammunition? Pop down to walmart and buy some more? Not really a possibility, especially not on a "desert island"!
If you want to invest in such a way, learn to make a gun. It's a fairly simple device really.
Also a shotgun has a fairly short range, and a spud gun has a fairly long range. Your shotgun won't save you if your neighbour can hit you from the horizon with an incendary round from their homemade artillery.
