pouët.net

okay, as you probably noticed, i'm getting pretty pissed off by nv-/ati-only demos lately, and judging by conversations with lots of people on the matter over the last one and a half years, i'm hardly the only one.

so, after some more talking, a few proposals on how we could tackle the problem on breakpoint:

• Business as usual. We'll have 2 identical compo machines with either NV or ATI graphics cards (currently more like ATI, but that's not sure yet). Anything that doesn't run - well, doesn't run and won't be shown.
  
• Law enforcement. We'll add a rule that a demo has to run on NV and ATI, and we'll check it. We'll have two different compo PCs, one with ATI, one with NV graphics card. Demos that don't run on both will be shown during the compo, but not available for voting. Note this will both have an effect on compo deadlines (which'll have to be somewhat earlier so we can check and you have longer time to submit fixes).
  
• Compatiblity chart. Again two different compo PCs. On submitting, you'll have to fill out a brief compatibility chart (multiple choice with some graphics cards), which will be shown on the entry screen in the compo. Each voter can decide for himself whether he cares about compatibility or not. This could have an effect on the compo itself - the last few years, we had two identical compo PCs so we could hide reboot pauses and the like pretty well. With an approach like that, it *could* become a bit worse, though ofcourse I'll do my very best :)
  

That are the 3 big models - and now I'd like some comments on what you think about it :).

agree. good initiative.

i think you would get some ppl pissed with b) couz it would sorta be saying that its bad that you are attempting to abuse a certain cards full features for the sake of portability. we arent doing games after all.. there should be some sort of slackness to where the demo works.. ofcourse we all want them to work on all cards but having demos to push the limits of certain instructions on certain cards is also *ahem* cute.. in lack of better word..

c) sound appealing. since more "portability" == <3 but what if you havent tested on the cards that its supposed to be working on? you can never be _totally_ sure if your claimed compatibility is truthfull, and you surely arent gonna bother going around testing on all machines when you got a deadline in 15 minutes :P

so i guess a) but stating on the bigscreen if the demo worked on both setups or not would be the better alternative..

I choose "Law Enforcement". Please do only accept demos that work on both Nvidia and ATI cards. In that line, please do also make sure that the demos run on the current SIS and Matrox offerings.

As an owner of old hardware I would hope you do not stop there, please make sure everybody does at least add a compatibility mode for old cards without pixelshaders. Oh, and I also do not like SSE and 32bit modes.

Well, and if we are at it - please do also introduce more sensible size limits. Demos do not have to exceed 3mb - just look at what you can do in 64kb, 3mb really ought to be enough. Modem/ISDN users will appreciate this, as they are more and more locked out from todays demos due to size reasons.

I'd rather bug hardware companies than we poor sceners. I personally don't have access to -any- ATI Radeon card at all... and that is not going to stop me from using all extensions found in the hardware I have available to code in. If that means my demo can't compete in a party, so be it. If that means my demo will be bashed by ATI users, so be it.

If anyone wants to donate a Radeon 9800 to me, I'll gladly code for it next time... but I'm definitely not having a separate computer just to test stuff on, and at a not-so-cheap cost.

Same goes for users with ATI not having NVidia's to code for
I'm not pro-NV, and, as a matter of fact, I'm recommending ATI Radeon to everyone asking me for advice... I've had my GF4 Ti4600 and I'm happy with it, but that doesn't mean I'd upgrade to a GF-FX... I'd at least think about getting a Radeon when the time for upgrading comes... but that's not now, I don't have any money to invest on this, I have several investments to do before I can think of my graphics card at the moment.

Blaming users for making something NV or ATI-specific only is stupid IMO. Exclude any range of graphics cards allowing the same features (just in a different way and with different bugs) is also stupid for a party IMO... so I'd go for the first option (two identical compo-machines, one with NV and one with Radeon, on the equivalent level [e.g. GF4 Ti vs Radeon 9700, GF FX Ultra vs Radeon 9800, or whatever).

To answer the initial post: c) sounds fair and good.

JD: ok, so you would welcome a scene split? Just look at the amiga scene. Now there is a seperate Amiga-PPC scene that consists of ~30 people. They (fe Potion) still have stunning releases, however almost all other people can just enjoy them as divx.

So maybe everything should be released as divx right away? I will we are crossing a line there, but actually the demoscene is approaching it full steam ahead..

Good idea, I'm fed up with those demos that never work on my hardware which is not even outdated.

And anyway it also pisses me off when the demo works on my nvidia cards but not on radeon, that's a basic principle, demos are not meant to be seen using divx (hi Cocoon guys).

if we adopt that scheme, i'll do a quick check whether the demo works on the claimed cards or not. You'll be able to place a preference, and I'll test+show the demo on the prefered card and only try whether it starts and the first minute or so works correctly on the other card. If it doesn't, you can either submit a fix later, or I'll just uncheck that compatibility flag for the compo. :)

Well, I have no right to an opinion as I've not yet managed to complete a demo project. However...

I'd love to see more demos work on more systems, as that would mean I could probably run them more successfully in WINE. (I'm trying to dump windows completely, the only thing stopping me is demos.) However I'm not about to say people should stop coding in Windows. Hell no. Make a product on whatever you have, and try to have it run on as much as possible. If it doesn't run on a particular configuration, you can try to make it run on the other but again, if you don't have the hardware it could be hell to debug it. Compatibility should be encouraged, but I'm not going to put compatibility in the list of things I'm voting on at the paty.

I would NOT suggest starting off with a police mode, as I would think some folks probably have been working on productions for a bit and this could throw a monkey wrench in their plans. I'm willing to sacrifice the compatibility to see something that pushes more limits or is more stunning visually or aurally.

Business as usual doesn't make a statement. I think a statement SHOULD be made, if you feel that strongly about it.

So I'm encouraging you to think of C as the best choice.

Again, I don't have a right to an opinion where coding is concerned. I'd like to be able to watch as many demos as I can, but hey, I don't have a PPC Amiga so I can't watch those either. Vidcaps are an acceptable alternative until such time as I can afford to get a machine that will run the demo. And, if no vidcap is available, I'll just have to wait.

ryg: and you're gonna watch the same demo on 10 setups for its whole length? :P for the whole +/-100 entries you'll get (4k+64k+demo)? :P that sounds like a fun activity to do when you've had over 48hours of nonstop partyorganizing on your back :P

well, 10, 5, 3 setups, whatever.. it's still alot..

ps: two setups - once on the nv machine, once on the ati machine. there's not gonna be more choices than that. and as i already said, i'll "only try whether it starts and the first minute or so works correctly on the other [non-prefered] card" (see two posts above your own).

More precisely, there's not more choices I'm gonna test. We'd probably include options like "GeForce3" etc and just trust the authors they're not trying to deceive us ;)

I'd prefer "Law enforcement". Everything has to work on both types of cards (at a semi-acceptable framerate -- saying "hey, it works on ATI in software mode" won't do ;-) ), but you still have two identical demoshow machines if possible.

I'm not sure if I like GFFX/Radeon9700-only demos either, but that's probably another story...

i'd go for a b) but since that would cause a coders riot c) sounds like a decent alternative as well.

i am against law enforcement.

well,
IMHO it's that way that we all do this for FUN.
people who are not able to test on other h/W then the one they have (for what reason whatsoever) should not be punished for spending lots of houres for their entry.
I know this means more work for the organizers, but lets face it:
the problem is/are the HW-manufactures who cant come up with one standart that uses the most importatnt features and is compatible. wich means again lots of work for coders or organizers. in the end we shold get nvidia AND ati to sponsor the Event, and bring their lead driver developer to the party. we'll see what happens. :)
(for clearence, for me its Ati OR nvidia .)

ryg: sorry, quick read too quickly aparently :) sounds good.. but most ppl would stull want to know if it uses pixelshading at all or not (gf2mx and the likes compatibility) thats why i exagerated on the number of setups... but i think nvidia vs ati vs no pixelshading vs just software is more then enough checks/info for most people to make proper voting judgment..

there should really be a survey (on the breakpoint site, or scene.org) to get an idea of what kind of video cards sceners have (gf2/3/4/fx, radeon 8x00/9x00). i would say, enforce compo demos to work with at least 75% of these choices.. which by now i'm hoping would be gf3+ or r8500+.. but again we'll have to see.

I think that as demomakers we still have the right to choose a target platform. Compatibility in demos is desirable but SHOULDN'T be mandatory, no matter how much it pisses you off if you can't watch all demos.
I always try to make everything as compatible as possible, but that's just my choice and I understand if someone doesn't want to code different versions of the same routine (even if it's easy in most cases), or use lower-end technology to achieve the same result.
After all we're doing this for fun.

Currently, it should be enough if a party provides both nvidia and ati compo machines. Some additional work has to be done sorting the demos to please the hide-reboots-system you use but that's something I expect from a party with so many productions (sorry Ryg, I know you've lots of work already :) ).
If it refuses to run in any of them then kick it out.

I found option c) a very very good idea, it's enough to let the audience judge if a demo deserves better/worse rank depending on how important compatibility is for them.

Incompatible demos (parties aside), are also usually less appreciated. That's the right punishment :)

Just my 2 cents.

phoenix: scene.org newest poll
/me whistles innocently.

i find it pretty ignorant of you guys that your awful .exe files don't run on any of my c64s.

and to stay on topic, i do totally agree with ryg.

I disagree with the "law enforcement" model...
I think that sceners are big enough, just write "*-only" or "ATI-/nVidia compatible" or whatever you want on the big screen before and/or after the projection and let sceners decide.