3D acceleration kills the demoscene
category: offtopic [glöplog]
ryg: I'll need hw, but not actually
blaa blaa blab blab blaa
blab
blab
Skarab: I can easily afford a TV, or even an HDTV. The reason I don't own one is because I don't want (or need) one. I prefer building with Lego...
melw: Bla blaa bla blah blah. Bla blaa blaa!!
Blah bla...?
Blah bla...?
thom: BLABBLAAA BLABALABLA!
bla bla?
bla bla?
My grand-ma haven't a television, no she had one, but it had been destroyed by her cat, a beautiful cat with long brown hair, and two eyes. I think he had eaten it because the television wasn't visible, it was unvisible, like the unvisible man, or superman with bublegum in his whitehouse...But that's not all, the cat had be stolen by superman, because he needs it to fight again batman, the cat is a kind of batmobil for superman, but you know all this, and the beautiful woman came to eat my dog milou ! No!!! after that this woman triied to enter into, she wanted to become stronger than the other, to get their money, that was difficult....I think this story explain the BlaBla Blaa Bla ?
My grand-ma haven't a television, no she had one, but it had been destroyed by her cat, a beautiful cat with long brown hair, and two eyes. I think he had eaten it because the television wasn't visible, it was unvisible, like the unvisible man, or superman with bublegum in his whitehouse...But that's not all, the cat had be stolen by superman, because he needs it to fight again batman, the cat is a kind of batmobil for superman, but you know all this, and the beautiful woman came to eat my dog milou ! No!!! after that this woman triied to enter into, she wanted to become stronger than the other, to get their money, that was difficult....I think this story explain the BlaBla Blaa Bla ?
ryg: Complaining about to less power of the compo machine is just ILL!
skarab, btw, nice comment for misery dentro :D
I thought this issue was over. The dark ages began when people were moving from DOS to Win95, and the majority of people were either sticking to DOS or crying in their beer... and then blurred into the introduction of 3D HW, where sceners either stuck to software or cried in their beer.. and then many people eventually decided that it was okay to code for the most common OS/hw combinations available, and things got nicer again... at least that's how I see it :)
Oh yeah.. In my opinion, software rendering has actually become more viable now than it was when 3D hardware was first introduced, due to faster processors. Isn't that strange? :)
hum, let's just clarify something I said, by :
HW makes things ( a little ) easier, and give you the time to focus on far more important things than HW/SW debate ^__^
I also meant that HW makes you gain the time you'd have spent to code your low-level language polygon routines, color combination stuffs, layers management... all this time can be used to focus on the artistic aspects, see de profundis by kolor, the engine isn't that spectular ( this is absolutely not a critic ) but they focused on the artistic apsects and it gives really nice demo ( imho ), I'm not sure it should have been done with DOS or SW in the same delay
skarab: artists is a special species, one can spawn at random in any group of people ( even among coders ^__^ )
anyway, blah blah blah blah
HW makes things ( a little ) easier, and give you the time to focus on far more important things than HW/SW debate ^__^
I also meant that HW makes you gain the time you'd have spent to code your low-level language polygon routines, color combination stuffs, layers management... all this time can be used to focus on the artistic aspects, see de profundis by kolor, the engine isn't that spectular ( this is absolutely not a critic ) but they focused on the artistic apsects and it gives really nice demo ( imho ), I'm not sure it should have been done with DOS or SW in the same delay
skarab: artists is a special species, one can spawn at random in any group of people ( even among coders ^__^ )
anyway, blah blah blah blah
Yeah! The old classical (and boring? NOT!) debate :)
I have written some things yesterday and the computer freezed, it's very boring after this happens to write them again!
Anyways.. hardware is good when someone wants to make something good looking easily and in few time, but it doesn't impress me that much, it's like your are just moving some vertexes and then the rest is done with the 3d card. At least that's what I am thinking when watching a 3d demo. For example when I had seen latest JFF demo, it looked cool and high colored in the screenshot (And the title tricked me ;) but I wasn't impressed,. I would be more impressed if every pixel of this was calculated and written even in a C64 chunky resolution ;) But ok,. it was a cute demo visually.. with the usual JFF style!
A real image of the code behind an accelerated demo is to think of few vertexes moving here and there and nothing else. With very few calculations you get whatever you want! But ok, I don't say that it suxx, everybody can do what he wants (I am even thinking to try it in Direct3d just to taste it a bit (I got an old Voodoo 2 from my brother who bought a TNT2 :)) but it just doesn't impress me even if it's hundreds of times better Visually! The feeling is diferrent when thinking that every fucking pixel on the screen is a coders work!!!
Now, I think Harware/Software is the same, that's the results who show what the sceners can do, harware/software debate is boring a bit because people create using what he wants, after that, we'll watched..
Another question: Is DJGPP dead ? (I want to know if I am alone in djgpp programming)
reed: I haven't watch misery dentro, only the screenshot, I have only a pc, why o( ? because I don't know, sorry (but me, when I worry, I don't use insults).
poi²: I am downloading de_profundis (by kolor), I've seen the screenshot, and I shut up.
Another question: Is DJGPP dead ? (I want to know if I am alone in djgpp programming)
reed: I haven't watch misery dentro, only the screenshot, I have only a pc, why o( ? because I don't know, sorry (but me, when I worry, I don't use insults).
poi²: I am downloading de_profundis (by kolor), I've seen the screenshot, and I shut up.
FWIW, I think the opposite of you Optimus. It is precisely
the point about vertices being the "granularity" of one's
thinking with hardware that makes it more challenging to
think outside that and come up with something totally
original. I also get the feeling that if I was going to do
a software demo at the moment, I would see 3D as the biggest
challenge and make it too important in my mind, and get that
far and stay there, which would make for a pretty dull demo
cos 3D's been "done".
But its horses for courses obviously.
the point about vertices being the "granularity" of one's
thinking with hardware that makes it more challenging to
think outside that and come up with something totally
original. I also get the feeling that if I was going to do
a software demo at the moment, I would see 3D as the biggest
challenge and make it too important in my mind, and get that
far and stay there, which would make for a pretty dull demo
cos 3D's been "done".
But its horses for courses obviously.
i am doctor chief, and i have reached a logical conclusion. skarab is a cunt.
true.
i dislike to say that but anyone who's seen skarab's website should have guessed he's a hell of a lamer...
i dislike to say that but anyone who's seen skarab's website should have guessed he's a hell of a lamer...
Skarab: I started coding a bit in DJGPP too :) Actually I got this from Bad Sector/Nasty Bugs in order to learn a bit C and start working on NB productions :)
However I am not keen of C(yet?) it's too complicated for the moment, lot's of things to learn, I prefer sticking in assembly logic sometimes (Few simple tiny commands, but have to code and think several things by yourownself to continue, u know ;)
Just a personal taste..
P.S. I wanted to say something else about 3d accels. But I forgot the word, ugh! Anwyays,. I will try to say it without that word. Let's use the word "minimised" for it instead. 3d cards are minimized,. or perhaps the coders have a minimized mind today? (not originality) It is a custom thing or something (Don't know if I use the right word again :P) the output is triangles. There is hardly pixel per pixel operation, or if it exists, it's not easy/fast to do on 3d cards. You have to do it in a texture and upload it again in the card. At least that's what I read.. I haven't coded yet, but I understand what he means, I start understand why and how 3d cards work and why people created 3d accel hardware and I understand what's the problem. I read the article about transmitions on latest Pain, very well said. With pixel per pixel control you can do everything you want and think, at least if you have some more fantasy! It feels great to me and free not like in the 3d cards (Ok,. there you are free to do everything you want with vertexes instead,. but where are the 2d effects, the alternative nonpolygon engines, e.t.c..??? And if it's possible, 3d accelerated coders don't bother, since it's better and faster with polygons?)
And in C64/GBA/e.t.c.. it's diferrent. There you have the opportunity to do pixel per pixel code too,. you can mix hardware sprites with a software routine and both. Here,. at least as I know, you must either do only software or only hardware. It's a problem with 3d cards to do pixel per pixel effects. You only output either polygons (In 3d card) or switch to software DirectDraw (Or DOS ;) mode and output only pixel.
Or is it not exactly so? Then why I see polygons and only polygons??? (And also effect with layers of transparencies,. but they are still really outputting poylgons.. no pixel per pixel control)
What do you say? I am curious to hear..
However I am not keen of C(yet?) it's too complicated for the moment, lot's of things to learn, I prefer sticking in assembly logic sometimes (Few simple tiny commands, but have to code and think several things by yourownself to continue, u know ;)
Just a personal taste..
P.S. I wanted to say something else about 3d accels. But I forgot the word, ugh! Anwyays,. I will try to say it without that word. Let's use the word "minimised" for it instead. 3d cards are minimized,. or perhaps the coders have a minimized mind today? (not originality) It is a custom thing or something (Don't know if I use the right word again :P) the output is triangles. There is hardly pixel per pixel operation, or if it exists, it's not easy/fast to do on 3d cards. You have to do it in a texture and upload it again in the card. At least that's what I read.. I haven't coded yet, but I understand what he means, I start understand why and how 3d cards work and why people created 3d accel hardware and I understand what's the problem. I read the article about transmitions on latest Pain, very well said. With pixel per pixel control you can do everything you want and think, at least if you have some more fantasy! It feels great to me and free not like in the 3d cards (Ok,. there you are free to do everything you want with vertexes instead,. but where are the 2d effects, the alternative nonpolygon engines, e.t.c..??? And if it's possible, 3d accelerated coders don't bother, since it's better and faster with polygons?)
And in C64/GBA/e.t.c.. it's diferrent. There you have the opportunity to do pixel per pixel code too,. you can mix hardware sprites with a software routine and both. Here,. at least as I know, you must either do only software or only hardware. It's a problem with 3d cards to do pixel per pixel effects. You only output either polygons (In 3d card) or switch to software DirectDraw (Or DOS ;) mode and output only pixel.
Or is it not exactly so? Then why I see polygons and only polygons??? (And also effect with layers of transparencies,. but they are still really outputting poylgons.. no pixel per pixel control)
What do you say? I am curious to hear..
As hardware on PC advances today, it is a good thing to try new stuff again. I have hardly seen a super high resolution 3d engine running smooth today, and there are voxels, raytracing, radiosity, 2d effect oldies ;) and not only!
There is a lot of CPU today for doing software effects,. and remember that people do not optimized that much and in low level, like they did in Amiga,C64, e.t.c.. The idea of doing something amazing for an older or newer PC in software just amazes me! But who is gonna dig in the PC when the hardware advances so much... for optimizing to the core you should come to alternative scenes (C64 and anything else or something...)
There is a lot of CPU today for doing software effects,. and remember that people do not optimized that much and in low level, like they did in Amiga,C64, e.t.c.. The idea of doing something amazing for an older or newer PC in software just amazes me! But who is gonna dig in the PC when the hardware advances so much... for optimizing to the core you should come to alternative scenes (C64 and anything else or something...)
who says hw acceleration is easy just shows that he has no clue about hw acc.
yes, it is easier to code a spinning cube in hw than in sw. but it is just impossible to do 100k polys in sw at 800x600 with fsa. also a rotating cube in 320x240 looks shity. what did sw 3d bring you? tons of donuts and ducks "wow i can rasterise one poly more than you". the main problem with hw is just that the demoscene is much to slow to keep up with the inovations. you get crest "ow, but i want to see it on my tnt". and face it, most democoders (include me) spend only spare time (and little of that) on coding demos. that means, demo engines evolve in about a year of 1 evening per week coding. and good hw acc code just requires much more work, especially as it does not scale so easily as software, because you do not just scale number of polys (they are not the BIG problem in hw), but because you have to scale features. i am still waiting for a demo that will show better hw fx than your average nvidia techdemo. (if i had some more time and motivation to code after work :))
but maybe it is also good. we get to see some great art nowadays instead of donuts, ducks, copperbars and rotozooms.
yes, it is easier to code a spinning cube in hw than in sw. but it is just impossible to do 100k polys in sw at 800x600 with fsa. also a rotating cube in 320x240 looks shity. what did sw 3d bring you? tons of donuts and ducks "wow i can rasterise one poly more than you". the main problem with hw is just that the demoscene is much to slow to keep up with the inovations. you get crest "ow, but i want to see it on my tnt". and face it, most democoders (include me) spend only spare time (and little of that) on coding demos. that means, demo engines evolve in about a year of 1 evening per week coding. and good hw acc code just requires much more work, especially as it does not scale so easily as software, because you do not just scale number of polys (they are not the BIG problem in hw), but because you have to scale features. i am still waiting for a demo that will show better hw fx than your average nvidia techdemo. (if i had some more time and motivation to code after work :))
but maybe it is also good. we get to see some great art nowadays instead of donuts, ducks, copperbars and rotozooms.
Optimus: I don't know if I've all understood.
Yes, it's faster to draw polygons with 3d cards, harware processing is faster than soft, so a harware demos MUST be more beautiful than software demos... I think in software, coders can code their own polygons aspect, the aspects of the demos can be more thinking. It's boring to watch 3D accelerated demos if they are only objects show with the blured polygons (always the same), and when I see the same aspect of polygons in a very good harware demo, I want to destroy my geforce. If in 1/2 years we could create a beautiful harware demo with only 40 lines of cod, I think the demoscene would be dead.. You can tell no! The demos would be more nice, but the demogroup wouldn't need coders I think! I want to say that if all coders create soft demos, demos would be all very different. The games using 3d harware are all similary, by the aspect.
I think 3D acceleration is only for games who must have 3d engine very fast, and software is for demos who must be all very different, beautiful (Ok, me I like pixels!..and blur!), a demo show new things (not existing in the reality), a game show real (or near reality) things.
Yes, it's faster to draw polygons with 3d cards, harware processing is faster than soft, so a harware demos MUST be more beautiful than software demos... I think in software, coders can code their own polygons aspect, the aspects of the demos can be more thinking. It's boring to watch 3D accelerated demos if they are only objects show with the blured polygons (always the same), and when I see the same aspect of polygons in a very good harware demo, I want to destroy my geforce. If in 1/2 years we could create a beautiful harware demo with only 40 lines of cod, I think the demoscene would be dead.. You can tell no! The demos would be more nice, but the demogroup wouldn't need coders I think! I want to say that if all coders create soft demos, demos would be all very different. The games using 3d harware are all similary, by the aspect.
I think 3D acceleration is only for games who must have 3d engine very fast, and software is for demos who must be all very different, beautiful (Ok, me I like pixels!..and blur!), a demo show new things (not existing in the reality), a game show real (or near reality) things.
shiva: you haven't watch heaven7 ?
Scarab, just because you haven't seen anything from me or my group, it doesn't mean that we haven't made anything.
But starting forum saying that x is better than y is just stupid. Do whatever you want, and let the others do the same. Mfx does intros for PPC Linux, it's crazy but you can't say anything about it. It's what they get their kicks with. And btw Mfx have my respect for doing whatever they want and not giving a damn about it or raising flames like you do.
But starting forum saying that x is better than y is just stupid. Do whatever you want, and let the others do the same. Mfx does intros for PPC Linux, it's crazy but you can't say anything about it. It's what they get their kicks with. And btw Mfx have my respect for doing whatever they want and not giving a damn about it or raising flames like you do.
"shiva: you haven't watch heaven7 ?" <- LOL
erm sorry... it's so good to laught :)
erm sorry... it's so good to laught :)
have no fear moT, we all know you're a lamer.
