pouët.net

I'm sorry, but I have to get something off my chest. You know, everytime I see some production by a group of newbies starting out in the scene (and that's not too often I might add) I see them getting beaten down by people critizing them for lack of design, good effects, 'seen this before' etc etc.
This is bad for 'the scene' because god knows if the scene is to survive it needs new blood, new ideas and right now people are being scared away by negative comments from a bunch of hilbilly f*ckheads who couldn't plot a f*cking pixel on the screen if their anal virginity depended on it. I have only one thing to say to these people, who NEVER did ANYTHING for the scene and think they have a right to critize others: mail your home adress to inopia@aardbei.com so I can come over there and shove that bullshit up your ass.
To all the newcomers I would like to say welcome, enjoy your stay, and don't care about comments from people who aren't worth the air they breathe. We were ALL newbies one time or other.

/Inopia

ps: yes, I DID wake up on the wrong side of the bed today

Well said Inopia.
there used to be an old saying, like: "scene is about friendship".
keep that in mind. it'll help you a lot.

FooLman/agreed.

well put. imagine being a newbie who tries to contribute by giving his opinion of prods and getting a response involving hilbilly f*ckheads and anal virginity and shouting about not being able to use putpixel like everyone was supposed to be coders. she'll probably cry herself to sleep and leave the scene even before joining. can't we all get along? let's just stop criticizing altogether and just look cute (not too cute however, someone might find it offensive) and love each other in global peace and harmony?

hippie!" :)

dear mister _216_, if your contribution to the scene is merely to bitch about other people's work, then quite frankly I would be glad if you left.

thank you

/Inopia

inopia may wish to learn more about people and not jump on stupid conclusions

if you don't tell people when they are doing shit they will keep feeling great about it and keep on doing shit.
and hey, scene is not for people who give up when they hear one bad word. if a newbie can't take a few comments that are not just "hey, it's completly lame, but you are new so it rules big time and we love you, please keep doing lame stuff" then he is pretty useless in the first place.

My conclusions are not stupid, nor did I jump to them. If you would take the time to read what I am saying and not get offended by the fact that perhaps you yourself write on pouet without contributing to the scene with productions and now you feel somehow 'attacked' perhaps I wouldn't have to explain myself again.
I am saying that people should stop flaming newbies, especially when they themselves have no skills to do better. I thought the scene was about having fun and doing things you liked. Tell some new guy his prod needs work or give him feedback on what could be better, but don't drive him into the ground on his first prod. If you can do better, get off your goddamn ass you bunch of lamers.

"I have like 5372958732 of friends", come on
"...

scene is not about friendship,
its about fun ...

I wouldn't take pouet.net THAT serious.

But I agree, that there are too much phrases like 'you suck', 'this sucks', 'do something better, idiot', 'fuck off', 'this is ugly', 'this is crap', plus all those pointless flamewars...

let me tell you what happened, when FooLman the newbie sent his first works to the big coder. (This happened some 10 years ago, and was on a commodore +4, and contained some rasters, and scrollers)
The products were shitty. Very shitty. The big coder sent back a letter (we were in the mailswapping era back then), stating: hey, this code sucks ass, but what about this:
if you write xx to register yyyy and wait until register kkkk becomes zz, then the raster is going to look cool, and so, and so...
After this I've fixed that code, and learned a lot. (although being lazy as hell didn't done anything remarkable.)
The moral of the story is: don't just bitch, but try to help them improve.
That's what i think scene-spirit should be...

Actually, the scene use to be about fun and friendship.
Friendships would be created through the fidonet relay's on BBS's, and disk swaping with different people all over the world.

I remember contacting, and being contacted by lots of really great sceners from all over the globe back in the good ol days.

I think the NET is partially to blame for the lack of commradship in todays scene.
There just isn't the same sence of closeness...
Most prods don't even have personal greets anymore :(

But that's another topic... for another time...
:o)

"..to survive it needs new blood, new ideas.."
new blood != new ideas.
if new blood brings new ideas (or achieves a higher technical level in bringing old ideas to life), who's gonna whine?!
and if the new blood recycles stuff that's been done before, saying "well, it's our first try, sorry, don't kick our butts", who needs this new blood?? and what will be so "new" about it then?!
I agree that opinions on newbie demos are sometimes too harsh. but sometimes they are even more harsh on demos done by respected old sceners (the recent farb-rausch stuff, for example 8)). if a few bad words make the young-scener-guy lose the motivation and dump his efforts altogether, well, that only means that he never *really* had any motivation to perfect himself. if, despite all the negative stuff he gets into his face sometimes, he continues to move on, he's gonna make it to the top.
besides, I have personally never seen a scener stop his scene efforts because of bad opinions.

inopia: no, your conclusions are stupid and you jumped to them prematurely. reading your nonsense doesn't prevent you from flooding the same rant over and over again and you are not really saying that people should stop flaming newbies but rather doing it yourself. following the logic you probably don't even think about the scene what you said or want us to give reasonable feedback either. of course, not being lamers and having lives, we can't do better but are already off our asses.

eat this.

bhead (and others): The way i see it (some/most ppl may/will see it differently) is that most newbies don't really become at all innovative before, say, their third or so prod. So dissing some new group just because their first or second demo looked like something most of the scene was doing a year or two ago isn't that 'fair' (but what in life is?).

Now if they haven't changed for the better or advanced at all after a while, then they might be considered 'useless' for the general advancement of the scene and could be dissed freely :D

Constructive criticism (and advice) is ofcourse always the preferred feedback but sometimes the only things worth saying about a prod are 'man this rules!' or 'fuck this sucks'...

dear _216_ .. I read some of the comments you placed on a couple of productions. None of them was even remotely positive. My conclusion is that you don't like demos. So why whine about them? Btw, did YOU ever DO anything else than whine? Show me ONE production you did that was better than the stuff you've been putting down and I'll personally eat my hat (if I had one).

inopia: surely you must be a troll?

Inopia is a respectable scene guy, but I guess his point about scene is quite very different from Jarno's.
I am quite very surprised he is turning the discussion level down to "show me if you are cool, and shut up if you are not".

Going back to the topic, yes, scene has been about friendship and fun since the old times, but flames and groupwars were quite popular back in the Amiga scene, and newbie groups received some huge loads of shit before being referred to as "cool people" (I am not going to argue about "elite", now and never). It's just part of the game. And people being very critic about demos are a part of it as well.

I am quite very surprised he is turning the discussion level down to "show me if you are cool, and shut up if you are not".

That's not what I am trying to say at all! I'm not saying people who are not 'elite' (that whole idea of elite sucks anyway) should shut up. The thing that I am sickened by is the downtrodding to newbies by anybody. It gets worse when the person that's calling other people's work 'crap' has himself no skills whatsoever. So my question is then, if you can't do any better yourself, in what position are you to judge others?

/Inopia

I should point out that I've written a small article adressing exactly this issue for pain 02/02.

I am quite very surprised he is turning the discussion level down to "show me if you are cool, and shut up if you are not".

That's not what I am trying to say at all! I'm not saying people who are not 'elite' (that whole idea of elite sucks anyway) should shut up. The thing that I am sickened by is the downtrodding to newbies by anybody. It gets worse when the person that's calling other people's work 'crap' has himself no skills whatsoever. So my question is then, if you can't do any better yourself, in what position are you to judge others?

/Inopia

ahem, would it be ok if, from now on, i thumbed up at least 3 out of 5 prods and went nicer on newbies unheard of instead of shamelessly bashing down their first demos?

_216_: that would be very much appreciated

ps: sorry for the double post guys

Incidentally, what bugs me most about this thing is that a lot of negative comments come from people who merely consume demos. Those people consider themselves 'demo critics' or whatever, but because they never release anything themselves it is impossible to give THEM critique once in a while.

Now, while I don't always agree with for example 216, but at least he has done more than just consume. He produced.

And then I ate some cheese, which gave me flatulence.

"I have only one thing to say to these people, who NEVER did ANYTHING for the scene..."

one might (IMHO with ease) argue that _216_ has produced
_A LOT_. of course it's not the quantity, but the quality
of the prods, but name even one badly coded prod by the accused and I'll substract it from the (pretty long) list of stuff he's done so far. (badly coded != out of the sphere of one's subjective view of what's cool, is it?)

I personally don't always like the outcome of the prods
_216_ has given birth to, but I'll give him the credit of being quite talented at what he does. after all he has done it for several years and received prizes, from several parties at which he was voted by the other sceners...