pouët.net

I've never signed any paper when joining the scene that claimed that a demo was necessarly free of charge.

AND MOST OF THE TIMES THEY ARE NOT.

Since we have to pay for hardware.

Ok, cool. I will upload some videos of games real soon :)

You might as well do that with office 97 and oracle since you seem fond on taking things way too far.

That's quite a good idea! And what about visual studio? I will capture some coding in visual studio tonight!

More good ideas?

Anyway, so your main definition of a demo is that it's free?

In which case shouldn't we take your argument way too far in the opposite direction by posting any kind of free animation, movie, game that has been made freely available to the public?

No, actually I am just asking if it is the first product on pouet.net where the binaries for the demo are not free. It seems it is? But maybe it isn't. And then, yes, I wonder where the border is. A demoesque game made by demosceners for sony in theory could be added then as well? I am just wondering, really. I am surprised that nobody gives a shit, because it seems it is the first time this happened.

What about those demos that were paid for by corporate interests? Like the OS/2 demos or the advert demos that have been made as well?

I'm not sure if you are arguing against the commercial aspect of LiS or against it's interactive aspects .. I mean formally it still looks pretty much like a demo. (And we've had somewhat interactive demos in the past as well)

As for the price/non-free aspect, like I said, there are other ways that make a demo non-free. It can be the cost of the hardware platform, the cost of the media (in the old times) the cost of the software platform, the cost of "setting it up", the cost of finding out about it (if it's really underground) ..

If it's the idea of plastic or somebody else making a profit .. what about any demo group entering a compo with the intent and desire to win? It's also in a sense to make a "profit" albeit a non monetary one (I'm not talking about compo prizes, but the pleasure to win the compo, the "fame" that is derived from it) .. So what's so different about money?

I agree with rob a bit.. sure, you have to buy a computer, windows or whatever, that's the same for any demo. But normally you don't have to buy the demo too. That's like saying paying to visit a demo party is the same as paying to visit a demo party plus paying 3 euro to watch each demo on the big screen...

Then again, this is something of a 'special case', I think it is more 'interactive demo' than 'demolike game', the charge is somewhat acceptable since it's low and sony have spent quite some effort to make it happen. So no problem at with having it on pouet and labelled 'demo' for me :)

I have never said I have any problems with making money with demos. But, for example, shortcut development from the Netherlands made a few commercial screensavers (100% demoish) with the dutch TBL people. Still, those products are not added here and rightfully so. Those demos were not made for the demoscene but for the customers. Just like LiS is made for sony and not for the demoscene. For me it feels extremely weird to make a demo, then render it to video, then release the video but make the binairies only available for money. Then at least admit it is a wild entry and not a demo.

But nevermind me, if the majority think it is normal then please ignore my opinion. This will be the last thing I will post about this subject.

Barrio: I don't why you have started this war against "LiS" not being a demo. It's 100% demo. It's made to promote the demoscene. I don't know what the impact will be or will be there any. The most important thing is that we are writing to public that this is a demoscene demo, and not "a serious case of WTF coming to your PS3". You haven't seen in it on a console, you haven't seen the hidden part so just shut up your mouth and DO (I don't know what actually you're doing on demoscene) something for Breakpoint. And if you don't - then I'll be able to say that the only thing you did for demoscene is "Rob is Jarig".

bonzaj, don't go there. his 64k's kick ass.

and Rob is not affilliated with Rob is Jarig.

Bonzaj, please, it's not a war. I really honestly am curious about this!

And they only thing I have contributed for rob is jarig is my existence, without it, Ile would probably not have made it. I have never ever released it myself! And I have coded a lot of 64kb intros and a 4kb. Also I am currently quite active working on a 64kb.

But you really did not give an answer to why this is a demo and not a commercial product for sony.

But like I said before, this discussion for me is over. I don't consider it a big thing and the majority thinks it is ok so I won't say anything about it anymore.

Also, I think you are quite lazy, you could have looked at my website for example to see what products I have worked on...

bonzaj, somehow LICENCE agreement on EACH sony product prevents to treat LiS as a demoscene production. demoscene brewed, corporate branded maybe. i'm not against it, at least it provokes some controversy, but you have to admit that people you are trying to reach will in most cases miss the point... poor u.s. burger eaters... you've been to nvscene, you know the scale.

and yes, demoscene production should have as less constrains as possible when it comes to DISTRIBUTION and PUBLIC VIEWING. so a demodisk with LiS as free addon to ps3 would be nice, but commercial product is simply no go for most of us, including me. you can always say than i can rip it, but never in front of your publisher. if you would say that LiS is a demoscene inspired game - this discussion just ends here.

anyway, if you want to conquer these worlds of mass consumption, imagine shitfaced clowns' gba cartridge published by nintendo and where we would all be then... imagine a psp demo by anyone that requires latest update of official firmware...

to justify, a quote from plastic site:
"I (bonzaj) will also use the opportunity to greet “Shitfaced clowns” because they were not greeted inside “LiS” (hard to guess why ;) )."

so constrains? rather corporate chains, not being able to greet a fellow group in normal, demoscene way.

so who would be next then, razor 1911? trsi? pussy? triad? eurasia? crimson jihad? possible denial list would be very long, you know it.

The question makes sense though. Strictly speaking, LiS doesn't belong here more than Super Stardust HD or Mirror's Edge.

The fact that this product was ordered (and content-controlled) by Sony and that Sony paid Plastic big buck to work on it two years is one thing. Why not, that's cool that demoscene people manage to get paid fulltime for their stuff (well, in the end that's what people at Dice do).

But the fact that's it's on Pouet in the PS3 category whereas we can't even download the binaries and whereas we need to go on PSN to buy it is another issue.
It's the very basic principle to have the binary downloadable here when you submit your prod.

The category should be wild, not PS3, since no binaries are available.

It's funny that round these parts it's always basically about the good old "go and make a better one and if you can't, you're not worthy" illogical non-argument. Imagine musicians, movie directors and others always responding that way to any criticism. That said, LiS was a great demo and I didn't mind paying for the binaries one bit and I wouldn't really even object to paying for all demos in the future in a similar manner. Free binaries isn't something to get all worked up about. Now if it was open source vs. pay to play closed source, then it might be.

come on cold fishes, there isn't any big difference between LiS and the intel compo... :p LiS is obviously motivated by scene spirit and maybe the best mainstream opening to bring new blood and interest into the demoscene, so it clearly can be present on pouet as an exception.

or maybe a new category like 'command' could be introduced ?

being unable to get the binaries puzzles me (i don't own any ps3... but not any real amiga either) but there are still the video and true Plastic motivations.

d'oh... i meant an 'order' category.

Keops and Rob do have leading. I think we should just add the TBL made url=http://www.winsite.com/bin/Info?20500000039082]Heineken[/url] screensaver which is p. much a demo too. (And it's free! *ziing*)

I is good at bb-code! Here is the Heineken screensaver!

Eh? The participants in the Intel Demo Compo don't get paid for their demo.

sloux, you're obviously wrong... if you sell content there is redistribution of rights in most of cases, so ze producer gets $$$ from it. if you want to pay then you wouldn't mind to pay royalties for each streaming from pouet sometime soon?

zest: you are able to get binaries, if you have the platform (and a few spare coins to insert). They're not available for 'direct download', but they're certainly out there, downloadable and runnable.

It's not possible to distribute binaries in the 'normal way' on some platforms.. expect to see iphone demos at some point in the same way (no binaries on pouet, but available on the app store) (and hopefully free) (assuming they're not made for jailbroken phones).

yup i totally agree, just an additional 'ordered demo' pouet category would solve the slight problem.