pouët.net

we can observe the earth with our own eyes, we can even go there to witness it for ourself if we have some 30 million bucks from making computer games. There is no reasonable doubt that can be had about the shape of the earth. You cannot in any reasonable way include big bang or evolution into this kind of certainty. They are both interpretations of observations and mathematical models. But using math i can prove that 18 is really 19, i just have to switch to another counting base. Observation, actual, observation is "evidence". Theory is theory. You are too intelligent a person not to be able to make such an obvious destinction just because the clergy of faculty says otherwise.



there is no interpreation on my part tho.

Pickthall Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

Yusuf Ali Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Hilali-Khan Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Shakir Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

Sher Ali Do not the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed up-mass, then WE opened them out? And WE made of water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Khalifa Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?

Arberry Have not the unbelievers then beheld that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up, and then We unstitched them and of water fashioned every living thing? Will they not believe?

Palmer Do not those who misbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were both solid, and we burst them asunder; and we made from water every living thing - will they then not believe?

Rodwell Do not the infidels see that the heavens and the earth were both a solid mass, and that we clave them asunder, and that by means of water we give life to everything? Will they not then believe?
Sale Do not the unbelievers therefore know, that the heavens and the earth were solid, and we clave the same in sunder; and made every living thing of water? Will they not therefore believe?

and the extending sky:

Pickthall We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

Yusuf Ali With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

Hilali-Khan With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Shakir And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Sher Ali And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.

Khalifa We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it.

Arberry And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide.

Palmer And the heaven - we have built it with might, and, verily, we do surely give it ample space!

Rodwell And the Heaven - with our hands have we built it up, and given it its expanse;

Sale We have built the heaven with might; and we have given [it] a large extent:

I Agree that the understanding is fancyfull, it does however not change that the verses are correctly translated, and imply a big bang just like that.
big bang is still a very old philosphical idea, thus i do find it likely that this is what the verse refers to, and it so happens to ressemble the modern theory of a big bang which muslims as always run along with. Science is cool when it "validates" something in the Quran, regardless of why it was in there in the first place (male chauvinism), and science is evil and twisted when it doesnt. Its a wonder to behold from afar, really.

lets hope its not in vain. Political correctness is going to make it so, if we dont do something and start to take these debates in the places we live.

Religion SUCKS!

Argumenting about religion even more SUCKS!

evolution is fact.
people continually mix up creation with evolution. Evolution doesn't explain nor try to explain the beginning of life on this planet. Creationists believe that god made creatures. Athiests ponder how life began but aren't certain yet.

You can take whatever creation POV you want, but once we have animals, they start evolving. That in itself might contradict some judao/christian teachings (apologies if islam/hinduism/buddism/taoism, etc should be included here but I do not generally know the religions well enough), but hey, that's what science generally does, fly in the face of religion.

I'm not sure why people think that Evolution somehow describes how life began. Evolution looks at what happens to life on this planet as time goes on. This has been proven, things do change and evolve new qualities, and sometimes very new qualities.

Big bang is still a theory, very much so. Its pretty freakin hard to factualise something that is near impossible to recreate. Its pretty hard for any non-theoretical physicist to get their head around. That end of things is quite cool really. The scientist in me says "right, so there's the big bang, what was there before that?" because if someone says 'nothing', then i'll ask 'how do you know? what makes you think that?'. There's always one more question!

Because that is how evolution theorists have sold it. Ever heard how life evolved from a single cell that came from space or just "appeared" for some reason? That is trying to explain the beginning of life, atleast on this planet, which as far as im concerned is the only one i need to worry about untill further colonization out there has been done.


well isnt that something, thats what all religious people say about their all encompassing theories!? religious people have proven God using math several times tho, the latest i read was that guy behind google adds. Good argument too about how random mutation never makes a precise string of data (DNA in the argument) any better for the interpreter program no matter how many times you randomly mutate it. Thousand monkeys really will just write thousands of pages of monkey business and not sharespearian litterature by accident.


the answer to, and the wonder of life isnt it? why settle on a single theology or theory of any kind when the world is this big and we only recently put a number on how much we have no fucking clue about...apx. 98% so we...inventive as we are- called it dark matter. I think illl just call it God...or Bob..i love Bob, Bob is a great name, but Bob properbly isnt all there is to everything.

YES ISLAM IS TRULY RELIGION OF TOLERANCE AND UNDERSTANDING.

LOOK THOSE NICE BOYS WHAT ARE THEY DOING. HAH HAH. truly tolerant. just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali ... a woman, a black woman, doesn't like islam. she is my hero. at least she can speak her mouth open, but now she has to have guards that any fucking "tolerant" muslim won't blow his brains.
also, excellent documentary which opened my eyes: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2515587181120245843&q=%22Channel+4%22+duration%3Along
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbLfpqBx2TU ...
after this all people who have some senses/independent thinking left can't deny that fundamental muslims are really a threat to society.

unseen: even compared to the christian fundamentalists in charge of nukes, and actively developing new ones for use on the battlefield, and with a long history of waging war around the globe? One side of an argument is meaningless without the other.

and i still think, no we should not submit and kiss their asses. if you go offend for example from the salman rushdie book the satanic verses, just choke on it. you don't have to go to street and be violent and burn flags and stuff. we don't go nuts on you when you tell that jews are bloodsuckers and death to all infidels, behead those who insult islam. we just think you are bunch of retarded sandpeople who came here refugee from your shitty backward country, and you should be fucking grateful for not stuck in the middle of war in your backward country where you only fuck camels. don't bite our hands. you need to know that you live in the europe now. you don't live in your backward country where you can marry 9 year old girl and hang homosexuals. you can give up your stupid faith if you want to. you can live normal life here, you can work and stuff if you can. but just don't hide in the bushes and rape our women. it's not cool, like coz we don't have the sharia law and sharia court. you will be punished from your rape what you did with your friends. that's all. my final word. and btw. eeblis you can talk me lot's of how tolerant and peaceful islam is. but see, i know what abregation means and how deceitful muslims can be when they talk about the islam. so just talk like you want. your word is worth of shit coz you don't clearly follow real islam.

as i said before, christian fundementalists are fucking crazy but it's not like bush is really a christian, truly i think. but as i said, all the religions are man made but worst is clearly islam

opinion from who really was a devoted muslim, hirsi-ali: "There is no moderate Islam. There are Muslims who are passive, who don’t all follow the rules of Islam, but there’s really only one Islam, defined as submission to the will of God. There’s nothing moderate about it." so... scary ?

Scary? No, scary is people who believe in a religion, but don't take it seriously and don't follow the rules of it. I fully agree with that quote :)

lol, muslims never had any wars right ? just type battle of vienna for example into wikipedia and go read about how europe was almost taken over by muslims. and christian crusades, they were just to protect the holy land again from those people who has too much sand in their asscrack. and you still want me to believe that islam is a tolerant/peaceful religion :)

HOLY WAR

unseen: there's plenty of warmongering on both sides. At the moment, the muslims are probably causing the fewest deaths. Not for lack of trying, but just plain lack of high tech weaponry. And the number of muslims being violent for religious reasons is tiny, it's the politicians causing the damage.

Blaming the religion makes about as much sense as blaming the skin colour, and makes the situation worse because you're insulting a whole lot of people with no real reason.

hummm psonice ... you got good points but still...

Look at the stir it has caused here. You can bet the same discussions are going on inside forums all over the internet.

The story was all over the news today, all over news websites, in magazines and absolutely everywhere. LBP is the most talked about game in years and what's more important, Sony end up looking like the good guys!

It's either an ingenious publicity stunt or it's a dispute that will make Sony a damn fortune!! Just watch those PS3s and copies of the game fly off the shelves!

how? like this one?



fyi, numbers are base agnostic.

You cannot pin the actions of terrorists on Islam just because they claim to be muslims. Just as little as you can blame Christians for Bush's and the new aristocracy's actions just because they claim to be christian.

As psonice pointed out, the only thing that is truely scary is ignorant people with a belief they never cared to investigate, they allow themself to be ruled on a fundamental level by the oppinion of others. These others are people they rarely know personally, thus they have no real chance of judging that persons character, and if they want it confirmed, they have to rely on more hearsay. If this reminds you of something, it it because this kind of dull think has nothing to do with religion, but is ever present in humanity as a whole.

I feel sorry for hirsi Ali, sorry for what happened to her in the name of Islam. however, except for 2 nations found on the African continent that happened to practice female mutilation way before islam ever came by, all other muslims however radical are fundamentally against the idea of female circumsision. Hirsi knows this just aswell as every man and his dog, even wikipedia knows this, so i feel sorry for her that she is so overwhelmed by anger that she allows herself to be a tool of deception by insisting that a very narrow branch, of a very narrow of a very narrow branch (local cult, get the point??) on the sunni family tree is Islam as a whole. It is not only deceptive that there is only one interpretation of Islam, it is an outright lie!

But one interpretation is becomming ever more dominant because of western influence in the middle east. First the west placed wahabism - in Mecca none the less- when they decided to finance the movements (guess who) working for a united saudi arabia (look up why its called like that), then a systematic theft of resources began in muslim nations.. i could go on forever litteraly with things the west did that led to this unfortunate situation we find ourself in and little of it has to do with the religion Islam in all its shapes and forms, and everything to do with money and politics, and religion -once again- is just used as an easy and effective way for despots to dominate the minds of men (and women) and not the personal spiritual travel each of them are supposed to be, that including Islam according to the Quran.

The middle easterns have every right in the world to be angry. First we trick them, them we fight them, and now...now we mock them because they have become frustrated and angry. Sorry if im not warrping myself up in the EU flag whole tootin to the rest of the world how awsome we are, because from the actual look of things......

optanes: the last thing, as i meantioned allready was the google adwords guy Perry Marshall. Interresting ideas he have; Here is his page and an mp3 lecture.

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm

But he is far from the only one i have seen taking a shot at it.



and a number without a system is what? a useless symbol, so what could the context i mentioned be? seriously wtf?!

unssi you are disinformed : the infuence of islam on rioters in paris suburbs was not what you think, it was rather the contrary : most imams called for riot stop and peace. jsyk.

i don't want to argue here but my points are valid even if they are not nice or doesn't go on "general mood". islam, especially fundamental islam is threat. just ask anyone who has witnessed 9/11 what they think about the radical muslims. or those bombings in spain and london. those guys are crazy and they hate western people. but i don't want to continue this talk, if you want to continue with me.. especially i would love to talk with zest, eeblis and psonice .. let's do it on email or im ?

also did anyone check out my links i gave to you ? they're pretty informational. especially that dispatchers undercover mosque is pretty good.

just for the record i hate islamist fundamentalism as much as you but you seem to fall into racist generalization and confusion...

is this the mathematical proof?



Apart from being a proof (what are the basis for the first two statements, what is a code?) it fails to arrive at conclusion easily digestible. dna codes protein structures in a much less elegant way than a single seed number codes a pattern of a billion random numbers.



oh please, a number ten is one after the number nine even if you don't name it a "ten" or represent in a symbol base derived from the numbers of your mortal fingers. 18 sheep will never be 19 sheep in which base you represent their numbers. and again for your information, many engineering branches deal with numbers without ever representing them. an 18V potential over a resistor is still an 18V potential over a capacitor.

and oh please drop that "muslims are flower children but only if those wahabis didn't exists :(" attitude. I myself living inside millions of muslims, mostly hanafi and shafii, everyday can assure you that rationalism, care for basic human rights and tolerance do not find many customers around here. but i'm pretty sure this ignorance feeds from the lack of reflect on need for curiosity and early age carvings of the fear of unknown and disobedience found in many cultures where religion is the major element forming the society.

fundemental <anything> is bad for our species, fundamental religion being at the top of this list.