Direction in demos
category: general [glöplog]
load: i read it, but then i'm a pretty sad person. :)
maybe that's the difference. demo-coders are creating concepts around effects, whereas movie directors are creating environments to fit the concept (or story)
maybe that's the difference. demo-coders are creating concepts around effects, whereas movie directors are creating environments to fit the concept (or story)
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some people on Pouet make me laugh. the moment a thread begins to dig a little beneath the surface of a topic, you always get a handful of people jumping up and down saying stuff like: "aaaah, wtf!? I just want to do what i want. you guys SUCK - always discussing things!!"
ffs, you can all do what you like, nobody is discussing this to lay-down any "scene rules", people just have discussions to get ideas - that's all. and sometimes it can help to look beyond your own backyard into other people's...just to see what other people's ideas have made possible :P
heh seizure, that's what i've been trying to say for a few weeks, that by debating and talking on pouet we may be able to analyse our common hobby, to help each others to improve it. without being bashed and accused of imposing any judgment diktat...
i'm glad Navis opened such a thread instead of myself or else it would have turnt into a flame fest and trench war... after watching the 5 demos and reading so many comments about direction i wanted to ask poueters about the legitimacy of the increasing importance of direction in current demomaking, leading to the predominance of some demo genres over classic ones which are as enjoyable imho.
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what's wrong with looking into the techniques of cinematography? demos and movies, obviously, share a lot in common - things that work in movies can work equally well in demos.
nothing of course, but to my eyes demos share even more techniques with gamedev than cinematography, that's why i still love cocoon and inque genres :)
besides if i wanted to be a tad more provocative, i would say that if most demos are to look forwards to being like movies, then they would look backward as old cinema is 20th century mass art medium whereas the 21th century one belongs to games :p
however it's actually stupid to oppose them : demos are a unique art which blends so many skills and talents, from games to movies, from drawing to music, from code to design, that it explains why i (we?) cherish it as the 'ultimate' expression of human abilities and feelings. and i mean it.
however it's actually stupid to oppose them : demos are a unique art which blends so many skills and talents, from games to movies, from drawing to music, from code to design, that it explains why i (we?) cherish it as the 'ultimate' expression of human abilities and feelings. and i mean it.
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For the still demo I'd say the camera work is good, the flow is excellent, but it could do with a little more polish perhaps.
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Oh, also notice that the still demo is done in a single camera shot - no breaks or transitions. I think that really helps with the flow.
I'll have to disagree about the camera work on Still's demo. There's one brief cut to another camera which somewhat disturbs the flow for me. Also, i don't find the main camera particularly interesting because it's only showing somewhat the same angle for the whole time. Also there's a few parts where it travels (unintentionally?) through objects.
But i'm not saying it's a bad demo, just that the camera work is far from good imo.
And yes, camera work is in my opinion one of the most important aspects in demo direction. Sadly, they're usually left with no or too little attention in my demos atleast because they're usually left as the last thing on the task list. Maybe i should start working the other way round...
Old cinema often has values that new cinema does not, especially if you look at all the mass-market drivel they put out nowadays. The same thing goes for music. If something has value, the value is eternal and does not depend on trends, the time or the place.
Everyone knows the only decent cinema is the cinematheque.
good topic actually. talking about a term like "direction" means you are talking about classic cinema (and hollywood). so elsewhere and the guy posting the definition of a movie director have some leading. now movie direction is a very well understood field and there might be something to learn from. on the other hand, maybe the demo charm comes from an intrinsic direction evolving from the colaboration between code, music and gfx rather than from the "directed will" to make something pleasing.
Shiva has leading. If I wanted to make demos that were more like films, I would rather make films.. but I don't; I am still as fascinated by the "marvel" of real-time. :)
direction is what makes a bunch of cubes fascinating
Shiva: perhaps the direction that comes from the collaboration is like jazz, and carefully planned direction is like an orchestra conductor playing a great symphony. Both are fine, but the results are different and not everybody likes both..
I think yeah, the 'jazz' style has more charm, but the conductor produces a superior result. I like either :D
Rainmaker: I'd say to me at least, the camera work in seeker is good 'for a demo', probably not for a film. There's definitely room for improvement though. I hadn't noticed the camera cut, and for me I'm pretty sure the camera went very close or between objects, but never through (I really hate that, especially in older visualice demos where it kills the ambience :) Good excuse to watch it again to see I think!
Interesting idea to set up cameras early on.. I wonder how much it would affect the design of the rest if you create the composition at the beginning?
I think yeah, the 'jazz' style has more charm, but the conductor produces a superior result. I like either :D
Rainmaker: I'd say to me at least, the camera work in seeker is good 'for a demo', probably not for a film. There's definitely room for improvement though. I hadn't noticed the camera cut, and for me I'm pretty sure the camera went very close or between objects, but never through (I really hate that, especially in older visualice demos where it kills the ambience :) Good excuse to watch it again to see I think!
Interesting idea to set up cameras early on.. I wonder how much it would affect the design of the rest if you create the composition at the beginning?
The next time I make a demo, I am going to make the cameras first and then build the visuals around those. It'll indeed be interesting to see how that works out.
That's a little harder and probably a pointless exercise. A bit like audio based on video vs. video based on audio.
What? Audio based on video actually makes a whole lot of sense. And video based on audio too.
Of course. My remark was just based on preacher's "camera first will yield more interesting results" presumption.
Would be kind of interesting to direct your camera movements when there are no objects to render yet ;)
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tomaes: actually I think it would make more interesting results. Doing it 'the normal way' means you have a fixed scene and objects, and have to compose your scene with what is already there, which is hard to get right. Setting the composition up first with placeholder graphics means you can get the scene just the way you like it, and the objects and effects can be made to fit it perfectly. The result could actually be better.. at least in theory :)
psonice: Good point. Yet I believe you have to have rather tangible ideas about the nature/shape/purpose of your objects, so you have to backpaddle half-way back to your normal approach.
In any case, I'm all for trying new things and breaking habbits. At least every now and then it seems worthwhile. :)
In any case, I'm all for trying new things and breaking habbits. At least every now and then it seems worthwhile. :)
Here in ASD, camera paths take roughly 1/3 of the production time of a demo. It is an enormous figure and it takes so long because it is hardcoded - all of the camera paths are functions, quite complicated ones. We also don't use quaternions.
Somebody mentioned that getting the camera close to a big object and looking at it from the bottom up makes it appear bigger and more important. True, isn't that common sense ? Any other tips ?
Somebody mentioned that getting the camera close to a big object and looking at it from the bottom up makes it appear bigger and more important. True, isn't that common sense ? Any other tips ?
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Setting the composition up first with placeholder graphics means you can get the scene just the way you like it, and the objects and effects can be made to fit it perfectly. The result could actually be better.. at least in theory :)
That's the path i took very recently (setting camera datas after a piece of music and using dummies volumes as not yet implemented scenes) after having analysed & dissected ASD demos.
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True, isn't that common sense ?
That's also a photography technique called low angle shot
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Setting the composition up first with placeholder graphics means you can get the scene just the way you like it, and the objects and effects can be made to fit it perfectly. The result could actually be better.. at least in theory :)
yes, its a great idea.
on the other hand, it'll mean you make the scene setup, then make the fx and graphics, put them in and find you can show stuff a lot better from a different angle or you need to hide such and such a problem. or the contents and ideas changed between doing the scene setup and doing the gfx+fx. so you end up doing the whole camera job twice. (i speak from bitter experience)
hitch: not to be confused with upskirt shots.
Hay , i'm trying to make demoes for fun
do you think it's a good idea ?
Shall i study first ?
do you think it's a good idea ?
Shall i study first ?
ra: i guess we shouldnt really learn to write proper code either.
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Somebody mentioned that getting the camera close to a big object and looking at it from the bottom up makes it appear bigger and more important. True, isn't that common sense ? Any other tips ?
Include something else that is percieved as big, but place it far away, to create a sense of scale. In fact, a sense of scale is what is missing from most demos I see. Including very tiny tiny details in large objects help them achieve this as well.
hitchhikr: *laughs* See if you can spot an entry that doesn't really fit in with the others on that Wikipedia page.. Here, I'll help you out:
Yes, because those four examples are equally famous, and not at all subjective opinions by the person who added that last one. :)
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Famous examples
* Citizen Kane (directed by Orson Welles): there are many examples such as during the scene where Kane fires Leland.
* Psycho (directed by Alfred Hitchcock): the house where Norman Bates lives is usually shot from a low angle.
* Star Wars (directed by George Lucas): Darth Vader is often shot at a low angle, for example, the first time we see his character as he is walking down a hallway.
* Used while filming World Wrestling Entertainment interviews with Andre the Giant.
Yes, because those four examples are equally famous, and not at all subjective opinions by the person who added that last one. :)