do you try to do art in your demos?
category: general [glöplog]
Why even bother?
I mean... who cares about pictures of naked chicks, space ships, dragons - or any variations of that theme.
Sure, one can go ahead and create those kind of things, and maybe even show that: yes, the person who did this was good - maybe even brilliant - in a technical way.
So what?
Who cares about creations that lack personality and creators who lack imagination?
A Cliché - even if it's 'technically' brilliant - is still a cliché.
(And yes: all this is of course also true for abstract / minimal / whatever art too).
I mean... who cares about pictures of naked chicks, space ships, dragons - or any variations of that theme.
Sure, one can go ahead and create those kind of things, and maybe even show that: yes, the person who did this was good - maybe even brilliant - in a technical way.
So what?
Who cares about creations that lack personality and creators who lack imagination?
A Cliché - even if it's 'technically' brilliant - is still a cliché.
(And yes: all this is of course also true for abstract / minimal / whatever art too).
Sofokles: Well the fact is a lot of people do care for pictures of women, spaceships and dragons.
I can't speak for everybody, but I think maybe dragons and women started out as a kind of measuring point for other graphic artists. One artist would draw a detailed woman or dragon (or both) then another artist would try to draw a better version. It's a lot like the bob wars or indeed any scene effect: most demos have the same content, but the best ones are the ones that show more detail, an appealing style or do it faster, smaller or more efficiently.
I can't speak for everybody, but I think maybe dragons and women started out as a kind of measuring point for other graphic artists. One artist would draw a detailed woman or dragon (or both) then another artist would try to draw a better version. It's a lot like the bob wars or indeed any scene effect: most demos have the same content, but the best ones are the ones that show more detail, an appealing style or do it faster, smaller or more efficiently.
wake up - people! Demos are artifacts of the present - no other "art form" reflects the state of technology, graphic styles and music better! Sceners have a wide range of different backgrounds, some are unemployed drunken dopeheads :), some are technical programmers - others again students, art directors, musicians! you name it - the scene's got it!
All these people come together, pushing the limit - and exploring possibilities - while having fun at the same time!!!
And the funny thing is - loads of ideas first explored in the demoscene start popping up in music videos, commercials, ad campaigns, popular music, fashion, films, games etc.
You might not be able to call it art - but it sure is where many trends begin - and were new ideas breed...
All these people come together, pushing the limit - and exploring possibilities - while having fun at the same time!!!
And the funny thing is - loads of ideas first explored in the demoscene start popping up in music videos, commercials, ad campaigns, popular music, fashion, films, games etc.
You might not be able to call it art - but it sure is where many trends begin - and were new ideas breed...
Wade, admit it already, it's because women and dragons are like, the coolest things to a (nerdy) teenage boy. I won't buy any other reason :)
And yenzen, mm ok there may be some influence in graphical and musical style (chip music maybe, but that's not so demoscenish) but I see the contrary mostly. Advertising, video clips, movies, etc influencing demos. (Not that it's bad, but it's a more realistic picture than the one you just painted.)
And yenzen, mm ok there may be some influence in graphical and musical style (chip music maybe, but that's not so demoscenish) but I see the contrary mostly. Advertising, video clips, movies, etc influencing demos. (Not that it's bad, but it's a more realistic picture than the one you just painted.)
and maybe insert here a discussion on the consequences of 10 years of competitions (graphics, music, demos) on the output of the demoscene compared to a situation were such wouldn't exist.
It appears to methat _beauty contests_ only serve to reinforce and reproduce stereotypes.
It appears to methat _beauty contests_ only serve to reinforce and reproduce stereotypes.
Ok Knos, I admit it. I just want to be part of the in-crowd. :)
Another art thread. I really want to know how you can distinguish one demos as "art" and another one not as art. Is there a criteria?
Do you say that demos which repeat or copy effects are not art? A lot of this discussion is about copied graphics but what about all the copied demo effects? Does this make them incapable of "art" status?
Do you say that demos which repeat or copy effects are not art? A lot of this discussion is about copied graphics but what about all the copied demo effects? Does this make them incapable of "art" status?
Quote:
And the funny thing is - loads of ideas first explored in the demoscene start popping up in music videos, commercials, ad campaigns, popular music, fashion, films, games etc.
Come back when we can see a Vallejo copy in the latest Timbaland video :)
In my opinion, demos that try to say something in some way are art. If you combine plasma and metaballs in a meaningful* way, why wouldn't they be art?
* (your definition of meaningful may vary according to your personal beliefs and preferences, intelligence, general understanding of the world and state of intoxication. This should be only taken as a subjective opinion and does not represent the opinion or official position of the majority of users on Pouet. This opinion is void where prohibited by law, and in the places where trolls roam).
* (your definition of meaningful may vary according to your personal beliefs and preferences, intelligence, general understanding of the world and state of intoxication. This should be only taken as a subjective opinion and does not represent the opinion or official position of the majority of users on Pouet. This opinion is void where prohibited by law, and in the places where trolls roam).
Music is art. Coding is art. Painting is art. Design is art. Directing is art. Modelling is art. Demoscene is art.
By other hand, the value of a piece of art is subjective. It is also subjective if a form of art is fine art or applied art.
By other hand, the value of a piece of art is subjective. It is also subjective if a form of art is fine art or applied art.
Cracking is art.
Preacher, don't forget that while metaballs and plasmas can be art, lines are definitely NOT art :D
wasily:
Yeees and i think this is the point.... If you look back the history of art, the technical factor of doing the art was always present... this is a way of expression, *WHICH IS ALL MORE IMPORTANT IN THE MEANING * that we are free of the modern constraint of art, I mean the commercial constraint which is enormous and more blocking than we believe , and also we have NOT the constraint of shape, we have NOT the constraint of fitting a certain shape to be spread.. etc... definitively ... demomaking is a door open to the widest filed of possibilities EVER OPEN !!!!!
Quote:
i just wondered what i would tell someone who asked what the demoscene is about.
would i say "those ppl just want to show what you can do with hardware" ?
sometimes ppl who see me watching demos, ask if it is some new screesaver ... so are demos just screensavers done for fast hardware? or are they more than that?
Yeees and i think this is the point.... If you look back the history of art, the technical factor of doing the art was always present... this is a way of expression, *WHICH IS ALL MORE IMPORTANT IN THE MEANING * that we are free of the modern constraint of art, I mean the commercial constraint which is enormous and more blocking than we believe , and also we have NOT the constraint of shape, we have NOT the constraint of fitting a certain shape to be spread.. etc... definitively ... demomaking is a door open to the widest filed of possibilities EVER OPEN !!!!!
... right, I asked mayself this very question too, really... to be explicit or not... to go for something abstract, or something sompletely explicit... but having the choice is great and precisou!! a thrird choice is of course being technic,; which is an expression by itself... with their own symbol codes... actullay I could point in what i've done , what is abstract, what is explicit... 2 kinds...
[ilmg] lol !
Some random, arguable thoughts. Oh and I pick a fight with Gargaj :-)
Beauty!=art, art!=beauty.
Gargaj: The Hertzfeldt quote. Sorry but in my book, that just means the artist wasnt so good. You read the wrong thing into his art: his art didnt pass on his intent. So no matter how beautiful or meaningful to you : its weak art.
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't make it less valuable for you or less meaningful or less enjoyable.
Wade: Hirst as fraud. I went to an exhibit of his back in the days when the formaldehide cow was still "healthy". I was awestruck. Simply put, he, not Picasso, began my interest in modern art - he is the reason I enjoy art galleries now. I remember standing "inside" that cow and beginning to laugh - with joy. The oddest most challenging reaction I've ever had to art.
Maybe hes still a fraud (where is his realism art?) but don't write him off.
Psonice: wholeheartedly agree with your seperation of art and craftmanship. Bravo. Skill !=art.
_-_-__ : completely agree about analysis and enjoyment, well said. Look I typed your name right :-)
I'll also add that beauty!=art. I can find a sunset beautiful but its not art. (err... Christian arguments aside for now).
Pouet!=artscene && artscene!=pouet
That said, I do think most Pouet people (ie ones without knuckles on the floor) can judge something on multiple levels. They'll give you votes for art or for beauty or for tech or even just coolness. Being crap I never manged to do more than one of them at a time. I managed high concept in 4k once but the tech and beauty were crap. Managed beauty once but no art or high concept etc etc etc. I think around here you have to hit 2 or more to really do well. This is a good thing and the thing I most admire about you guys and your demoscene.
Beauty!=art, art!=beauty.
Gargaj: The Hertzfeldt quote. Sorry but in my book, that just means the artist wasnt so good. You read the wrong thing into his art: his art didnt pass on his intent. So no matter how beautiful or meaningful to you : its weak art.
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't make it less valuable for you or less meaningful or less enjoyable.
Wade: Hirst as fraud. I went to an exhibit of his back in the days when the formaldehide cow was still "healthy". I was awestruck. Simply put, he, not Picasso, began my interest in modern art - he is the reason I enjoy art galleries now. I remember standing "inside" that cow and beginning to laugh - with joy. The oddest most challenging reaction I've ever had to art.
Maybe hes still a fraud (where is his realism art?) but don't write him off.
Psonice: wholeheartedly agree with your seperation of art and craftmanship. Bravo. Skill !=art.
_-_-__ : completely agree about analysis and enjoyment, well said. Look I typed your name right :-)
I'll also add that beauty!=art. I can find a sunset beautiful but its not art. (err... Christian arguments aside for now).
Pouet!=artscene && artscene!=pouet
That said, I do think most Pouet people (ie ones without knuckles on the floor) can judge something on multiple levels. They'll give you votes for art or for beauty or for tech or even just coolness. Being crap I never manged to do more than one of them at a time. I managed high concept in 4k once but the tech and beauty were crap. Managed beauty once but no art or high concept etc etc etc. I think around here you have to hit 2 or more to really do well. This is a good thing and the thing I most admire about you guys and your demoscene.
uh drunk, will sober up and regret posting for sure...
drunk ? WITH Me MY FRIEND !!!
HAPPPY CXXXMASS !!!!
HAPPPY CXXXMASS !!!!
[quote="reed"]btw, to any musicians around, how would you apply this to making music? is art something else than beeps and noise that don't make sense in the traditional meaning of the word? is pop art?[/quote]
Do I have some deeper meaning behind my beats and bleeps? No.
I make music I'd like to listen to myself, and when working for a demo with a predefined concept I naturally try to make something that I'd think fit with the mood of the demo. I try to do it as technically good as time (or tools, if it's a 4k/64k) permits.
That is all.
As pointed out by several others, "art" is in the eye of the beholder. I personally find more "artistic value" in a demo like Kasparov than a demo like 828. Kasparov struck a nerve with me, whereas 828 is just random shit thrown together with no sense or purpose (to me). However, 828 is typically regarded (especially by those who dislike it) as "artsy", while Kasparov probably wouldn't be the first demo one mentions when asked for "something artsy".
I do however don't really look for artistic value in demos. I just want to be entertained by something that looks and sounds cool.
Do I have some deeper meaning behind my beats and bleeps? No.
I make music I'd like to listen to myself, and when working for a demo with a predefined concept I naturally try to make something that I'd think fit with the mood of the demo. I try to do it as technically good as time (or tools, if it's a 4k/64k) permits.
That is all.
As pointed out by several others, "art" is in the eye of the beholder. I personally find more "artistic value" in a demo like Kasparov than a demo like 828. Kasparov struck a nerve with me, whereas 828 is just random shit thrown together with no sense or purpose (to me). However, 828 is typically regarded (especially by those who dislike it) as "artsy", while Kasparov probably wouldn't be the first demo one mentions when asked for "something artsy".
I do however don't really look for artistic value in demos. I just want to be entertained by something that looks and sounds cool.
just for the record, our friend buttler has successfully resurrected a 4-year-old thread. i don't necessarily agree with everything i've said in the past. call it evolution if you like.
