Ripping, cheating and re-releasing at Breakpoint and how we are going to deal with it
category: general [glöplog]
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gargaj, just forget drinking at asm and stay at boozembly.
you'll have lot more fun.
yes, at asm they be stealing your blue bottle of vodka!
scamp:
you wrote: "Firstly, the release was missing credits for the source material used, which sucks (but is not really relevant to our rules)." then a bit later you stated:
"If something got shown in a compo, and people have voted against it, then you lose. Your entry is released, people didn't like it, democracy, etc.".
how do these two fit together? if an audience is unaware of a ceartain piece( let it be music art or gfx...) i use that piece in my entry and do not provide credit the audience might choose my entry over another. if the audience is aware that i used material form somebody else they have the real choice: did i do something cool with it or not?
like in a real democracy i create a spin by not telling the audience, i create a distorted image, because the default assumption of an audience is, that they see an original piece. by not telling, everyone jumps to the conclusion that i did the piece on my own and they base their vote on a faulty assumption. ( again, just like in a real democracy :)
of cause, there is the compyright issiue as well.
but you state that the re-usage of stuff done by third persons "is not really relevant to our rules", yet you want to have a democratic decision. that is imho not possible. the question is: do you want to allow bullshitig the audience or not?
jumping to the timbaland-case: we make fun here on pouet of everyone who argues pro-timbaland. but think about it, if you never saw/heared the original before, what will your judgement be? same goes for using thirdparty stuff in competitions, not labeling which comes from the artist who did the entry, and what comes from third party sources. i tried to point that out years ago with the plastic/hdr-textures thingie.
i mean, if tbl would have used .. lets say the knigt-rider theme, everyone would recognize it, and judge wether its creative and new what they did with it, or if it is boring, the way this went down( using a track barely anyone at bp heared before ) it got judged under false pretex, and that is what should be in the rules, and not "ripping is bad per se". i mean amen-break and all, or the talk of lawrence lessig atr 23c3: re-mixing is an art, too but the remix must be recognizable as remix, not as "new track". ( my two cents )
some material on that:
the amen break
Lawrence Lessig: On Free, and the Differences between Culture and Code
you wrote: "Firstly, the release was missing credits for the source material used, which sucks (but is not really relevant to our rules)." then a bit later you stated:
"If something got shown in a compo, and people have voted against it, then you lose. Your entry is released, people didn't like it, democracy, etc.".
how do these two fit together? if an audience is unaware of a ceartain piece( let it be music art or gfx...) i use that piece in my entry and do not provide credit the audience might choose my entry over another. if the audience is aware that i used material form somebody else they have the real choice: did i do something cool with it or not?
like in a real democracy i create a spin by not telling the audience, i create a distorted image, because the default assumption of an audience is, that they see an original piece. by not telling, everyone jumps to the conclusion that i did the piece on my own and they base their vote on a faulty assumption. ( again, just like in a real democracy :)
of cause, there is the compyright issiue as well.
but you state that the re-usage of stuff done by third persons "is not really relevant to our rules", yet you want to have a democratic decision. that is imho not possible. the question is: do you want to allow bullshitig the audience or not?
jumping to the timbaland-case: we make fun here on pouet of everyone who argues pro-timbaland. but think about it, if you never saw/heared the original before, what will your judgement be? same goes for using thirdparty stuff in competitions, not labeling which comes from the artist who did the entry, and what comes from third party sources. i tried to point that out years ago with the plastic/hdr-textures thingie.
i mean, if tbl would have used .. lets say the knigt-rider theme, everyone would recognize it, and judge wether its creative and new what they did with it, or if it is boring, the way this went down( using a track barely anyone at bp heared before ) it got judged under false pretex, and that is what should be in the rules, and not "ripping is bad per se". i mean amen-break and all, or the talk of lawrence lessig atr 23c3: re-mixing is an art, too but the remix must be recognizable as remix, not as "new track". ( my two cents )
some material on that:
the amen break
Lawrence Lessig: On Free, and the Differences between Culture and Code
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Sonic/smash designs has stolen the #3 executable music (oldschool) prize money. He wasn't present at the party at all
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The person who's done the cheating and submitted the entry is FZool/Smash Designs. Fuckings to him instead ;)
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We know for a fact that it was Fzool/Smash Designs to submit the entry, that Fzool and and sonic agreed on submitting this
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That much for the introduction, here's a list of rules that apply equally to all competitions:
* If you submit something, you have to be present at the party. No exceptions!
* Entries have to be free of third party rights unless you have a legal license to use the given content. So no ripped music, no movie snippets, no closeups of trademarked logos, etc.
* Compo entries may not have been released before. This means whole productions, productions may to a certain grade contain previously released material. Please contact the organizers in advance to make sure you are within bounds. Pure rips or copies will be kicked from the competition without further notice.
Well, Fzool has released something and he was at the party. As you say he had a legal license to use the given content, given to him by Sonic. So the only rule he has broken (maybe by intention, maybe not - I don't know it) was the last one. Actuall pure [...] copies will be kicked from the competition without further notice is not exactly what happend here - a big fuss with a lot of tomtom. Looks like someone was violating his own rules ...
abductee: bringing up the amen break is like comparing the wild west "wanted dead or alive" posters with the death penalty of the 21st century. That shit doesn't fly as far as it did back then.
Also, on a fucked up (and hopefully wrong) note, my brother quipped that he actually heard the "house version" some time ago, way before Breakpoint. Where could this have been landing previously so that it came across a clubbing character like him? :|
Also, on a fucked up (and hopefully wrong) note, my brother quipped that he actually heard the "house version" some time ago, way before Breakpoint. Where could this have been landing previously so that it came across a clubbing character like him? :|
Dbug:
Well, speaking as someone who was on that jury... if you want to enter an Oric picture into the graphics compo, it's your own responsibility to make sure that someone with an Oric is present at the preselection showing. That's how it's always worked. It sounds to me that the organisers were being exceptionally generous to include it in the compo regardless, so don't blame them for your mistake.
(I made more or less the same fuckup in 02, although by then I was having severe hardware problems that would probably have stopped me from showing my entries even if I had known to show up for the jury...)
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And I learned by somebody else who was at the old-school graphics compo jury that he did not see my Oric picture either. I had to find some officials to ask them to check and then found that yes it was missing and they added my picture WITHOUT HAVING THE PRESELECTION JURY EVEN SEE IT.
Well, speaking as someone who was on that jury... if you want to enter an Oric picture into the graphics compo, it's your own responsibility to make sure that someone with an Oric is present at the preselection showing. That's how it's always worked. It sounds to me that the organisers were being exceptionally generous to include it in the compo regardless, so don't blame them for your mistake.
(I made more or less the same fuckup in 02, although by then I was having severe hardware problems that would probably have stopped me from showing my entries even if I had known to show up for the jury...)
so exotic releases can be discarded with a "meh" because they cannot be bothered. ok.
if by "cannot be bothered" you mean "cannot be bothered to acquire one unit of every possible platform that someone might want to make a prod for but then fails to bring their own" - yep, that's about right.
Hey banana-eater, are you suggesting someone should know every song that's ever released at once?
If you look a bit harder, you may notice they did throw the entry out the second they realised it was previously released.
For the votekey handling. I know who the guy handing out votekeys to Archmage was, and I'm pretty sure in that case it would have been done on purpose, as a drunk joke :)
For the rants about the asm jury. At least in my eyes the professionalism is rather up and down. The one year I went there I skipped rating We Cell for obvious reasons. The head of jury then asked "why haven't you rated this", I answered, and got a "oh, that doesn't matter".
So yeah, if you want a production moved forward, just but a whole lot of groupmembers in the jury.
If you look a bit harder, you may notice they did throw the entry out the second they realised it was previously released.
For the votekey handling. I know who the guy handing out votekeys to Archmage was, and I'm pretty sure in that case it would have been done on purpose, as a drunk joke :)
For the rants about the asm jury. At least in my eyes the professionalism is rather up and down. The one year I went there I skipped rating We Cell for obvious reasons. The head of jury then asked "why haven't you rated this", I answered, and got a "oh, that doesn't matter".
So yeah, if you want a production moved forward, just but a whole lot of groupmembers in the jury.
but = put and i'm becoming finnish :(
Leia: you should get worried about it only when you find yourself doing finnish the rally driver -style ;)
and i of course meant english the rally driver -style :)
damn i'll get worried when leia starts talking about how the race was just going fine until the car broke down and how the next time she'll win for sure since the mechanics now know what's the problem with the car. doesn't matter if she does it in finnish or english :)
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For the votekey handling. I know who the guy handing out votekeys to Archmage was, and I'm pretty sure in that case it would have been done on purpose, as a drunk joke :)
i cannot believe what i am reading here.
as said, we're gonna make VERY sure next year that drunk organizers don't get within 10 feet of a votekey.
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* Entries have to be free of third party rights unless you have a legal license to use the given content. So no ripped music, no movie snippets, no closeups of trademarked logos, etc.
Ok, i'm being a dick here, but this disqualifies a fuckton of entries including the winning Amiga 64k.
That would make this the most disqualified demo ever. :(
no
it was not released at breakpoint
it was not released at breakpoint
I know. But it's a classic demo that everyone loves, and these days you couldn't get away with releasing it. I find that a little disturbing.
well my opinion might be not valid from a legal approach, but it tends to differ depending on the amount of uncredited material used in an entry:
. use the playboy or volkswagen logo , it's ok for me
. use samples in your song (as long as you don't rip the whole melody and bass line), it's ok for me
. let people believe the concept is yours and original, like imho it happened with suicide barbie, and 'm not happy anymore. in this precise case i'm more disappointed by the uncredited reuse (some will call it inspiration) of Roberto Roseano pictures than by the remix of Veronica Maggio's song.
now that all the TimBaLand :) story happened, i guess we have to clean up our own mess. some will argue that when money enters the game, everything is different. anyway if you want timbaland and other music producers to respect and credit scene music, then scene must respect and credit other people's work. simple.
and putting a disclaimer stating "i've been inspired by this or that" should not change people's opinion on the amount of work you DID put around to end up with a nice entry
. use the playboy or volkswagen logo , it's ok for me
. use samples in your song (as long as you don't rip the whole melody and bass line), it's ok for me
. let people believe the concept is yours and original, like imho it happened with suicide barbie, and 'm not happy anymore. in this precise case i'm more disappointed by the uncredited reuse (some will call it inspiration) of Roberto Roseano pictures than by the remix of Veronica Maggio's song.
now that all the TimBaLand :) story happened, i guess we have to clean up our own mess. some will argue that when money enters the game, everything is different. anyway if you want timbaland and other music producers to respect and credit scene music, then scene must respect and credit other people's work. simple.
and putting a disclaimer stating "i've been inspired by this or that" should not change people's opinion on the amount of work you DID put around to end up with a nice entry
we certainly don't have that rule because we enjoy disqualifying top3 entries after the party...
right now, our policy on the whole thing (besides being royally pissed) is to concentrate on entries with blatant copyright violations (e.g. suicide barbies soundtrack) and just leave the stuff with photos that are only shown for half a second, short movie clips and the like on the release server until someone complains (at which point we'll have to take them off immediately).
and yeah, this is really just about copyright violations, because a lot of lawyers right now are making their money primarily by searching for them and suing the offending parties (which would be bp organizing if we host this stuff). so yeah, we are a lot more worried about this than we were, say, 5 years ago, because the risk is much higher nowadays.
right now, our policy on the whole thing (besides being royally pissed) is to concentrate on entries with blatant copyright violations (e.g. suicide barbies soundtrack) and just leave the stuff with photos that are only shown for half a second, short movie clips and the like on the release server until someone complains (at which point we'll have to take them off immediately).
and yeah, this is really just about copyright violations, because a lot of lawyers right now are making their money primarily by searching for them and suing the offending parties (which would be bp organizing if we host this stuff). so yeah, we are a lot more worried about this than we were, say, 5 years ago, because the risk is much higher nowadays.
what ryg said, i was about to state that times have changed, with internet, p2p etc ... indeed for some people out there, it's a job to hunt for copyright violation. it ends up with people receiving threats like the author of the open source irrlicht 3d engine
so there are two different problems:
. being pissed of because you think you have been tricked :D
. being responsible for what happens in the party you're organizing, the same way people who run forums are responsible for what's being said on them !
so there are two different problems:
. being pissed of because you think you have been tricked :D
. being responsible for what happens in the party you're organizing, the same way people who run forums are responsible for what's being said on them !
well, we can live with (and defend ourselves) against bullshit threats. e.g. we got called by the criminal police a week before the party because someone (some law agency from southern germany, we don't know details yet) claimed bp was a copy party. this is obviously ridiculous and we're going to sue them for slander. however, this also means that right now a bunch of copyright violations in various breakpoint prods (which we're even hosting on our servers) is a very real problem, because we quite certainly don't want this to be argued in a court only to have them decide that we actually ARE a bunch of copyright violators (worst-case, that might shut bp down for good).
That's hysterical. :D
But serious. :|
But funny. :D
But serious. :|
But funny. :D
haha what the fuck! gravenreuth back in biz?
