pouët.net

[ First, sorry my terrible english :( ]

Now that the polemic discussions on Pouet are gone, and we have all these "random" threads, let me write here some thoughts about a hot topic - 64 kb intros.

It looks like intros are getting more and more complex. I sometimes thing they will never stop increasing in content quality; it looks to me there is "no limit" (triple quote here, but you get the idea) on what one can fit into 64 kb. This is because a bunch of reasons, but mainly because we have a better understanding of what entropy is (and we have ryg), we have a bigger and bigger imagination about algorithms and we love procedurality.

In the other hand we have the OS. Now we have triangle clippers and rasterizers for free on the sysytem (like OpenGL). We have sound systems, directsound, fonts, jpeg libraries... Soon physics cards will be common and a corresponding API will be here too. When anyone (Microsoft or PDF, I don't care) finaly get to the definitive standard for 3D object-in-text-document, a funcion like "decompressMesh()" will be added somewhere to win3d.dll or whatever. Same for subdivisions, ray-mesh intersections and all other cool things that we still have to programm manually in our intros. All that will be in the system. We cannot (and probably "must" not, but that's another discussion for me) stop demosceners from using all those new functions in the systems.

I could live with all that. However, I still would not feel well by using gm.dls, the new wallpapers on vista or it's vocoder.

I was thinking, and this a kind of proposition for all demosceners, could it make sense to allow coders to use system _funcionalities_ (api functions), but not _data_ ???

I mean, I want 64 kb intros to evolve, but not at the cost of cheating. For that we allready have 4k intros -don't get me wrong, I'm fine with 4k intros; but I think these are about knowing the system and creatively exploiting it, plus crazy coding skills-. I think 64 kb intros should be able to do very well with self contained data, specially that in the future more and more code will be moved to the OS side (out of the 64kb exe boundary).

Could such a rule ("intros are allowed to use system functionality, but not data") make sense in future, ore no one cares?

are fonts data or functionality?

there is this thing about the scene having a problem with drawing the line.

I support the use of system data too, I think.

I don't think it makes sense. due to the reason gargaj pointed out. I will, however, continue making minimalistic things.

iq: I tend to think the way you do but it's unfortunately unavoidable :/

Just use anything you want. I don't believe using a Windows wallpaper will ever help improve anything anyway :-)

The thing with data is that you have to use caution when exploiting it, since it may vary between computers, and it's in the group's best interest that their demo won't fail on some computers. (Especially not compoputers on parties)
For example, using gm.dls is no more cheating than sending MIDI to a soundcard with wavebanks. As for wallpapers, I don't see the use, and sa for theb vocoder, I don't reckon Vista has one, only a speech synthesis that sounds like one.
And I already think 3D API's has done much more to shrinkage than using data ever could.

As long as it works without the need to install extra stuff it's fine by me.

Just stick to minimalism. Problems like these, then, will solve themselves. :)

Fuck, first i was thinking this post was serious and i acctually read it all the way till "and we have ryg", then i looked for author (assuming random lamer) - and i see IQ !! Ok. Case closed. Back to beer.

If you got a well equipped machine/system at hand why not use it. As long as the intro stays a sole executable that can "survive" on a reasonable system-config it's ok.
The other thing is the pride- issue you know. By which I mean: Tick - use the convenient way ; Tock - be proud of your self written stuff. Either way, the look of the outcome counts at last.

The breakthrough for VHS and DVD was - PORN!

I believe the only way for 64k intro format to evolve further is to be based on more porn. Especially for portable devices. I believe this is a unique chance for the demoscene to reach out to a broader audience. For example candytron by farbrausch is a good beginning. I believe todays gfxcards enable even more realistic rendering. Also, a more straightforward and more explicit story is required.

What minas said.

Vista was just released and the new wallpapers and stuff look new and shiny, but wait a year or two and you will have seen all these pictures a dozen of times already on PCs and photos of PCs everywhere, and then you won't want to use these pictures in a demo/intro because it would look boring.

well, some certain crews already reached some virtual boundaries in matters of pr0n

nitro2k01, a speech synthesis that sounds like one until you read the sound back and you distort it; the Times font looks like crap until you glow+distort+emboss it and a midi sound is recognizable until you feed it into some delays/filters. Finally, of course minas, a wallpaper looks like a wallpaper until you apply some imaginative algorithm to ir (...google for "texture synthesis" just to mention one random nice thing you could do).

*cough* Times font == design felony 1st degree

Some sceners already noticed the writing on the wall and went into the virtual porn business: http://www.sexybots.com/

Bonus points for finding out which well known democoder is involved into this.

Stop whining! People should use whatever they want, thats part of the fun. Some people like to do it "pure" and some don't. Who cares?

I'm not whining, just asking for others opinion to see if my thoughts make sense or not. No need to say each one can do what he wants.

Rob: some people do and so do I, Iq's question is quite relevant and interesting even if already debated.

Iq: I think BoyC's limit is the only one you can actually set and is the most reasonable one.

*cough* Comic Sans *cough* *cough* *vomit*

I don't know... It makes sense for 4k, but still not convinced about 64k... I'm also not sure about what you mean by "BoyC's limit is the only one you can actually set". Well, we have Equinox, Conspiracy, Aardbei and Traction's opinion.

I first read Stelthz's post about porn, and then Rob's "Some people like to do it "pure" and some don't."...

Iq: well, I mean you can't really ask coders not to use a given feature from the OS/DX API. The only actual limit you can set is what the OS and DX can offer, without installing any additionnal DLL's/Apps

Plus, the basic enduser won't see the difference (see how Zoom3 managed to fool quite some uninformed people).

But still, I mainly agree with your post but it's not really doable and the limit of "what should be allowed or not" would remain fuzzy and mainly coderpron :)

I guess that even if nowadays, OS provides lotsa "shortcuts" to "supermegaeffectsoftheoverdoubledeathofthebash" there will still be coders around to use the functions a more creative ways than some others.

Because i just guess (again) it's all about creativity into strict disciplines that makes a demo a god damn fucking great demo.