Breakpoint 2007
category: general [glöplog]
photoshop: by 90s rules i mean 2190s of course *cough* ;)
kb_: You're absolutely right that those limits were introduced for practical reasons to begin with. No doubt had there been fast internet connections and big hard drives in the early 90s filesize limits would've been different.
The point I wanted to make isn't that any particular set of limits is ideal. I suggested a compo for ~350k mods in "strictly-tracker" formats, because music from the period where that kind of music was common happens to be interesting and innovative in my view. I may have it all wrong of course. Those formats and those limits might not have had anything to do with anything, or maybe the music would've been even better if todays tools were available then. It's impossible to say.
But that IS my point. As long as the scene has existed there's been a constant drive towards newer platforms, and it's lead to things like tracked music, that's true, but it's also killed tracked music, because not enough people stopped to consider if it was worth hanging on to. They were too busy turning it into streamed music and then moving on to more professional applications.
There's a whole diskmag full of stuff to say about that, but you can't argue with Germans once they get hooked on Industrial, so all I want to say is: what about imposing those same limits again in a compo in 2007? And see what happens. Doesn't have to be 350k, sorry ps ;), could be a megabyte, could be somewhere in between. Granted, it would be a completely artificial restriction and not reflect on current hardware development at all. So in that respect it would be like these compos:
Amiga demo
Amiga 64k intro
Amiga 4k intro
C64 demo
C64 4k intro
C64 graphics
C64 music
PC 64k intro
PC 4k intro
Executable music x 2
96k game
And that's another thing: why the double standards? Why seperate graphics and music compos for the C64? What purpose do the 64k intro compos serve?
More importantly (to me at least) why waste time and energy on the Amiga compos? Outdated hardware, that's falling apart anyway, stupid artificial limitations that don't make sense, and all that. 20 MB filesize limit? What for? You're not getting a 20 MB demo onto an Amiga without some kind of network connection to it, and if you've got one of those, a 64 MB demo would slip through just as easily. And that leaves you more room for sine tables. You could even ask: "if you want to make an oldschool production, isn't the C64 much older?"
I happen to know the answer to that question: Breakpoint would lose half of its appeal without the Amiga compos. I'm not saying the PC compos are worthless, but I think we can all agree that Amiga demos are fundamentally different, and I think a lot of (if not most) people agree that they're actually better. If nothing else give anyone a choice between watching either the Amiga compo or the PC compo, and if he's attended for a couple of years you know what he'll say. My take on why Amiga demos have something PC demos will never have: because the Amiga mindset is different, because the Amiga requires that.
Now, all I want to ask is, can't you at least suggest that the something similar might be true of tracked music? Not this hopeless "I need 128 channels because it has to sound as smooth as something out of €10000 of pro hardware" kind of tracked music, but the kind that's been limited enough to inspire creativity, yet free enough to let you do something with it.
It's like Björk said, "limitations are a big turn-on for creative people". And you can't disagree with something that is a turn-on to Björk. Cause she said it back when she was hot.
The point I wanted to make isn't that any particular set of limits is ideal. I suggested a compo for ~350k mods in "strictly-tracker" formats, because music from the period where that kind of music was common happens to be interesting and innovative in my view. I may have it all wrong of course. Those formats and those limits might not have had anything to do with anything, or maybe the music would've been even better if todays tools were available then. It's impossible to say.
But that IS my point. As long as the scene has existed there's been a constant drive towards newer platforms, and it's lead to things like tracked music, that's true, but it's also killed tracked music, because not enough people stopped to consider if it was worth hanging on to. They were too busy turning it into streamed music and then moving on to more professional applications.
There's a whole diskmag full of stuff to say about that, but you can't argue with Germans once they get hooked on Industrial, so all I want to say is: what about imposing those same limits again in a compo in 2007? And see what happens. Doesn't have to be 350k, sorry ps ;), could be a megabyte, could be somewhere in between. Granted, it would be a completely artificial restriction and not reflect on current hardware development at all. So in that respect it would be like these compos:
Amiga demo
Amiga 64k intro
Amiga 4k intro
C64 demo
C64 4k intro
C64 graphics
C64 music
PC 64k intro
PC 4k intro
Executable music x 2
96k game
And that's another thing: why the double standards? Why seperate graphics and music compos for the C64? What purpose do the 64k intro compos serve?
More importantly (to me at least) why waste time and energy on the Amiga compos? Outdated hardware, that's falling apart anyway, stupid artificial limitations that don't make sense, and all that. 20 MB filesize limit? What for? You're not getting a 20 MB demo onto an Amiga without some kind of network connection to it, and if you've got one of those, a 64 MB demo would slip through just as easily. And that leaves you more room for sine tables. You could even ask: "if you want to make an oldschool production, isn't the C64 much older?"
I happen to know the answer to that question: Breakpoint would lose half of its appeal without the Amiga compos. I'm not saying the PC compos are worthless, but I think we can all agree that Amiga demos are fundamentally different, and I think a lot of (if not most) people agree that they're actually better. If nothing else give anyone a choice between watching either the Amiga compo or the PC compo, and if he's attended for a couple of years you know what he'll say. My take on why Amiga demos have something PC demos will never have: because the Amiga mindset is different, because the Amiga requires that.
Now, all I want to ask is, can't you at least suggest that the something similar might be true of tracked music? Not this hopeless "I need 128 channels because it has to sound as smooth as something out of €10000 of pro hardware" kind of tracked music, but the kind that's been limited enough to inspire creativity, yet free enough to let you do something with it.
It's like Björk said, "limitations are a big turn-on for creative people". And you can't disagree with something that is a turn-on to Björk. Cause she said it back when she was hot.
Oh god, I rant. /o\
you guys meant 512KB for modsize right :)
I meant 350. I could agree with 512 too.
previous page Doom.... :)
512MB typed hehe
512MB typed hehe
kb actually meant 512 MB.
half gigabyte for a .mod size ? lol
Quote:
My take on why Amiga demos have something PC demos will never have: because the Amiga mindset is different
yes you are very special indeed... so different from the rest of us... so much more (dare i say it?) elite...
let me bow for thee, for thou hast an amiga!!!!111
:-(
havoc: Feel free to disagree with my preference for Amiga demos. But I didn't say the Amiga mindset was superior. Just different. And as a consequence Amiga demos have qualities that PC demos lack, for better or worse. With the point being that some people need to acknowledge that even though those qualities stem in part from the inferiority of the hardware they aren't necessarily negative.
But thanks for noticing that I am elite. About time.
But thanks for noticing that I am elite. About time.
"Why seperate graphics and music compos for the C64?"
C64 graphics came *this* close to being axed this time, due to the steady decline of number and quality of entries in that competition. another year like 2006 and we'll probably cancel it. it's a seperate competition mainly because it needs to be recorded to video by the C64 competition team: we only have 2 recording stations and the recording schedule is awfully tight (that's why the C64 graphics compo usually isn't even on the same day as the freestyle/theme graphics compos even though they normally have the same deadline).
we haven't had a seperate c64 music competition since 2005; the c64 music thingy is just a hyperlink to the executable music oldschool compo :) (it isn't even nearly as tough to do multiplatform compos with music because recording music compos is so much easier).
as for the different compo categories, of course the division into 4k/64k/demo is quite artificial (and i never really got why we don't have a c64 64k [onefile] compo, well, not my decision :) but they attract very different types of releases, so it's fine with me. as a non-musician i haven't heard a significant difference between tracked and streaming music entries for years (except a slightly higher quota of techno entries and somewhat lower general level of mastering quality in the tracked compo).
as for the 20mb limit for amiga demos, the original plan was 64mb for both amiga and pc. charlie (who organizes the amiga compos) requested the change because HDs in typical amigas are a lot smaller than for PCs and way slower too. that's certainly a factor to be considered; i don't know enough about amiga hardware to make any decision on that subject, but i trust his judgement, so if he says 20mb makes sense then that's what we use.
C64 graphics came *this* close to being axed this time, due to the steady decline of number and quality of entries in that competition. another year like 2006 and we'll probably cancel it. it's a seperate competition mainly because it needs to be recorded to video by the C64 competition team: we only have 2 recording stations and the recording schedule is awfully tight (that's why the C64 graphics compo usually isn't even on the same day as the freestyle/theme graphics compos even though they normally have the same deadline).
we haven't had a seperate c64 music competition since 2005; the c64 music thingy is just a hyperlink to the executable music oldschool compo :) (it isn't even nearly as tough to do multiplatform compos with music because recording music compos is so much easier).
as for the different compo categories, of course the division into 4k/64k/demo is quite artificial (and i never really got why we don't have a c64 64k [onefile] compo, well, not my decision :) but they attract very different types of releases, so it's fine with me. as a non-musician i haven't heard a significant difference between tracked and streaming music entries for years (except a slightly higher quota of techno entries and somewhat lower general level of mastering quality in the tracked compo).
as for the 20mb limit for amiga demos, the original plan was 64mb for both amiga and pc. charlie (who organizes the amiga compos) requested the change because HDs in typical amigas are a lot smaller than for PCs and way slower too. that's certainly a factor to be considered; i don't know enough about amiga hardware to make any decision on that subject, but i trust his judgement, so if he says 20mb makes sense then that's what we use.
Every BP submission should fit on a single floppy disk, period :)
(High Density allowed)
(High Density allowed)
keops, but i want to release a demo for my IBM PS/2 with 386 SLC processor, it has ED drive!
doom: why do people need to acknowledge the amiga scene any more than any other random scene?
let's face it, the amiga platform is by far the smallest "big" platform. in fact, it is so small that several of the larger "small" scenes have been beating the amiga scene in terms of productivity for a few years in a row now.
maybe it's a bit too long ago to remember (9 years now)... but back in the late 90's, the atari scene was scrapped from the schedule, while it was still at least twice as big as the amiga scene is at this moment. in what way is that any more or less fair than binning the amiga scene now?
the thing is, it's not about "being fair" or "following tradition" or anything like that. it's about keeping the scene vibrant, interesting for more ppl than just the zealots... and this state cannot be reached by isolation and other ostrich-tactics, trust me... we tried it for 7 or 8 years and it brought us nothing good at all. i would hate to see the amiga scene straying along that same goalless path.... but hey, if you insist... :P
let's face it, the amiga platform is by far the smallest "big" platform. in fact, it is so small that several of the larger "small" scenes have been beating the amiga scene in terms of productivity for a few years in a row now.
maybe it's a bit too long ago to remember (9 years now)... but back in the late 90's, the atari scene was scrapped from the schedule, while it was still at least twice as big as the amiga scene is at this moment. in what way is that any more or less fair than binning the amiga scene now?
the thing is, it's not about "being fair" or "following tradition" or anything like that. it's about keeping the scene vibrant, interesting for more ppl than just the zealots... and this state cannot be reached by isolation and other ostrich-tactics, trust me... we tried it for 7 or 8 years and it brought us nothing good at all. i would hate to see the amiga scene straying along that same goalless path.... but hey, if you insist... :P
Ah. Well, always click before you type, I guess.
But as for the limit for Amiga demos, please, please don't! 20 MB is bordering on insanity, and 64 MB is way past the line and well into end-of-the-line-for-Dr.-you-know-who territory. The Amiga hasn't changed since 1994, and the 060 instruction set and cache still much prefer 256x256 textures ;), so you can't use that technological progress rhetoric. Plus, a big part of the magic is that we can keep doing new things without needing more animations and precalc to do it. There are too many animations in Amiga demos already. Was that a stab at TBL and Loonies? I don't know! \o/
A1200 and A4000 both sport IDE interfaces, though the interface IS pretty sluggish. And it mght not handle 250+ GB drives all that well, dunno. Uhm, so does that mean 20 MB is fixed forever? Please? ;)
I agree that the tracked music compos these past few years have been boring. I just take that to confirm my suspicion that tracked music without limits is pointless. Especially if you allow Renoise entries. A 4ch compo, say, would be different, even if certain people dislike 4ch music as much as certain other people dislike SID music.
But as for the limit for Amiga demos, please, please don't! 20 MB is bordering on insanity, and 64 MB is way past the line and well into end-of-the-line-for-Dr.-you-know-who territory. The Amiga hasn't changed since 1994, and the 060 instruction set and cache still much prefer 256x256 textures ;), so you can't use that technological progress rhetoric. Plus, a big part of the magic is that we can keep doing new things without needing more animations and precalc to do it. There are too many animations in Amiga demos already. Was that a stab at TBL and Loonies? I don't know! \o/
A1200 and A4000 both sport IDE interfaces, though the interface IS pretty sluggish. And it mght not handle 250+ GB drives all that well, dunno. Uhm, so does that mean 20 MB is fixed forever? Please? ;)
I agree that the tracked music compos these past few years have been boring. I just take that to confirm my suspicion that tracked music without limits is pointless. Especially if you allow Renoise entries. A 4ch compo, say, would be different, even if certain people dislike 4ch music as much as certain other people dislike SID music.
May i be the first one in this thread to state the obvious:
Doom: IRIS demos are complete crap - they look bad - they run poorly - they are booring - now go shut the fuck up.
Doom: IRIS demos are complete crap - they look bad - they run poorly - they are booring - now go shut the fuck up.
What about some DSP seminars at BP 2007? (For the people who always wanted to know something about FFTs, IIR- or FIR-filters, convolution or resampling algorithms and high quality digital audio processing in general.)
havoc: That's the only thing the Amiga scene can do. It's either that, or we all leave it for the PC scene and give up software rendering, low-poly modelling, 2D effects, hardware banging and all the other things we like, and, correct me if I'm wrong, world, all the other things that make Amiga demos so interesting to the "outsiders".
But it's not like we're keeping people out. They're free to bring all their creativity and come join us. We encourage that. It's just that you'll never fit your Radeon X1337 Pro GTX Turbo in a Zorro-III slot, and Microsoft will never provide an AmigaOS port of DirectX, so if you want to join the _Amiga_ scene, you have to accept that working on the Amiga is not like working on the PC at all.
We could try to make the Amiga more like the PC by adding one of the few remaining PPC accelerators that haven't broken in half yet, slap on an outdated 1998 3D accelerator if we can live with the unbelievable pricetag, and, well, then we're nowhere near anything resembling progress but we've taken a giant step off the comfortable platform that's given you demos like the excellent stuff you've seen in the Amiga compos at BP these past few years. And ASM06 of course.
That won't make the Amiga scene any less isolated, but it might kill it off completely. If you're actually suggesting that's no big deal, then fine, but can you seriously say Breakpoint wouldn't be poorer without it? And IF you really care that little for the Amiga scene, then what IS the big deal? It's not like the *cough* Amiga compos *cough* are *cough* stealing all the *cough* prizemoney, is it? So step outside for a beer or two while we display our stupid, irrelevant, outdated skills that won't score us any jobs in the games industry, if you can't handle 14-bit, 26 kHz, ADPCM-molested soundtracks. I'm sure someone there will play some SID tunes for you on his boombox.
But it's not like we're keeping people out. They're free to bring all their creativity and come join us. We encourage that. It's just that you'll never fit your Radeon X1337 Pro GTX Turbo in a Zorro-III slot, and Microsoft will never provide an AmigaOS port of DirectX, so if you want to join the _Amiga_ scene, you have to accept that working on the Amiga is not like working on the PC at all.
We could try to make the Amiga more like the PC by adding one of the few remaining PPC accelerators that haven't broken in half yet, slap on an outdated 1998 3D accelerator if we can live with the unbelievable pricetag, and, well, then we're nowhere near anything resembling progress but we've taken a giant step off the comfortable platform that's given you demos like the excellent stuff you've seen in the Amiga compos at BP these past few years. And ASM06 of course.
That won't make the Amiga scene any less isolated, but it might kill it off completely. If you're actually suggesting that's no big deal, then fine, but can you seriously say Breakpoint wouldn't be poorer without it? And IF you really care that little for the Amiga scene, then what IS the big deal? It's not like the *cough* Amiga compos *cough* are *cough* stealing all the *cough* prizemoney, is it? So step outside for a beer or two while we display our stupid, irrelevant, outdated skills that won't score us any jobs in the games industry, if you can't handle 14-bit, 26 kHz, ADPCM-molested soundtracks. I'm sure someone there will play some SID tunes for you on his boombox.
photoshop: I know. Sorry. :( I hope one day I'll have this kind of talent:
I can dream, can't I?
I can dream, can't I?
Every post from Doom I imagine being read to me by Dr. Doom.
It gets so much better....
It gets so much better....
Okkie: Try to picture me naked.
...and having assumed world domination, finally :D
Quote:
And you can't disagree with something that is a turn-on to Björk.
Oh trust me on the following: "A PIECE OF CAKE" WILL NOT DEFINE THE EASE OF IT.
Just because she heard one of her ever-shifting range of producers quip that doesn't make her special. Only Amiga.
doom:
actually i do care... but not just about amiga. because the day will come, sooner or later, that the amiga scene is just too small to come up with the content necessary to justify separate compos. and then what?
some months ago, i dropped the idea of allowing falcon demos in amiga compos. for the amiga guys there's little to loose, and for us... well, i guess we'd rather get beaten by you than some random jokeprod in the wildcompo, where we have been banned since 1997. see that idea as stage 1 of my evil masterplan...
...because after doing that, the day will come that this combination doesn't justify a separate compo, so another bigger coalition would have to be forged to keep separate compos justified, but this coalition will also become too small one day and so on and so forth until dawn breaks and the milkmaid awakes.
it's just the nature of things: as technology progresses, platforms become obsolete, sceners age and get a "real" life, and the demoscene's output fades out (slowly). we can respond to this fact in two ways: either we stick to what we have until it bleeds to death and all is over-- or we do some creative relabelling if the marketplace dictates so, and get on with the program. ;)
actually i do care... but not just about amiga. because the day will come, sooner or later, that the amiga scene is just too small to come up with the content necessary to justify separate compos. and then what?
some months ago, i dropped the idea of allowing falcon demos in amiga compos. for the amiga guys there's little to loose, and for us... well, i guess we'd rather get beaten by you than some random jokeprod in the wildcompo, where we have been banned since 1997. see that idea as stage 1 of my evil masterplan...
...because after doing that, the day will come that this combination doesn't justify a separate compo, so another bigger coalition would have to be forged to keep separate compos justified, but this coalition will also become too small one day and so on and so forth until dawn breaks and the milkmaid awakes.
it's just the nature of things: as technology progresses, platforms become obsolete, sceners age and get a "real" life, and the demoscene's output fades out (slowly). we can respond to this fact in two ways: either we stick to what we have until it bleeds to death and all is over-- or we do some creative relabelling if the marketplace dictates so, and get on with the program. ;)