Riots in Hungary
category: general [glöplog]
well...
If you riot, you get on TV - and it adds some excitement to your dull life. (Tomcat?)
Living together with such riots decrease the social barriers against any violent action - and that's a real damage done in Hungary.
There is a petition against riots in Hungary to show that the majority of people condemn street violence and support democratic measures.
Living together with such riots decrease the social barriers against any violent action - and that's a real damage done in Hungary.
There is a petition against riots in Hungary to show that the majority of people condemn street violence and support democratic measures.
the riots in hungary are adding a new dimension to the current situation in europe. the ugly face of fascism is lurking more and more openly from beneath the "cultured" mask of the bourgeoisie. i never thought i would live up to times when riots are initiated by reactionary and contra-emancipative means and led by (not-only-)crypto-fascists. shame on the politicians who pull the word "socialist" through the mud with their actions. the radical left has slept for far too long, leaving the field to cryptofascist peasant-catchers while the social democRATS are screwing it up - well, they have long training in it since 1914.
but back on topic - tomcat, if you really participated in destroying the monument of those who freed your country from hitler and hórthy (and besides that, freed europe from the imperialist aspirations of your country) - go and rot in prison. yes of course there was occupation in hungary, caused by stalinist imperilalism and moscow-fattened cynics like mátyas rákosi, and i condemn every action of stalinist imperialism - but disgracing the memory of those individuals who cleaned europe from the pest of fascism is the last thing to do. you want hórthy back? or what else does it mean?
it doesn't matter if you call it "nationalist liberalism" or "nationalist democracy", it doesn't make an arch-reactionary and proto-fascist ideology better. and no, i'm not calling tomcat & co. fascists, since i don't want to fall for the propaganda of a rotten state doing everzthing to save its neck... - but if we speak about fascism, there is no freedom of expression for fascists. "fascism is a crime, not an opinion."
but back on topic - tomcat, if you really participated in destroying the monument of those who freed your country from hitler and hórthy (and besides that, freed europe from the imperialist aspirations of your country) - go and rot in prison. yes of course there was occupation in hungary, caused by stalinist imperilalism and moscow-fattened cynics like mátyas rákosi, and i condemn every action of stalinist imperialism - but disgracing the memory of those individuals who cleaned europe from the pest of fascism is the last thing to do. you want hórthy back? or what else does it mean?
it doesn't matter if you call it "nationalist liberalism" or "nationalist democracy", it doesn't make an arch-reactionary and proto-fascist ideology better. and no, i'm not calling tomcat & co. fascists, since i don't want to fall for the propaganda of a rotten state doing everzthing to save its neck... - but if we speak about fascism, there is no freedom of expression for fascists. "fascism is a crime, not an opinion."
Yeah, it feels like europeans have gone raving mad. I seriously don't want to live in the 30s
violence has hardly brought any democracy back, quite the opposite...
many true democratical revolutions in History were quite peaceful, that was great and that's the right way.
many true democratical revolutions in History were quite peaceful, that was great and that's the right way.
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violence has hardly brought any democracy back, quite the opposite...
October 5th, 2000. Belgrade, Serbia
The riots on the streets led to the fall of Milosevic's extreme, left winged chauvinist regime which flamed a war in the region and ruined the lifes of thousands and thousands of people.
I can't say that we have the percfect gouverment now, but it's democratic and we're mostly heading to better.
But basically similar faces, similar situations as in Hungary.
Don't get me wrong, I don't endorse the violence in Budapest, it's not the same case. Neither I want to associate Milosevic with Gyurcsány, but sometimes these kind of actions are the only choice. People could go very extreme when they're really desperated, and violence _could_ be approved when they help achieving radical positive changes.
Dipswitch, the russian army is still really hatred in Hungary. They killed and raped quite al lot of innocent hungarians during II WW. I'm not sure if anyone calls them "liberators" in Hungary. And that also consorts a bit with the now active socialist leadership which basically grew out from the ex-communist puppet-gouverment which was controlled from Moscow in the beginning. F.e. Gyurcsány was an ex-KISZ (Association of Young Communists) member, the PM before him, Medgyessy Péter was an ex secret agent. So destroying the monument could be associated as an act against them, and very very far from pro Hitler/Horthy deed (Horthy wasn't even on the head of the gouverment when the russian army "freed" Hungary).
Considering Tomcat, I wouldn't care less if he was a nationalist, communist, dadaist, a half-eyed ETA member or a left winged alien from Mars. I know him and thus I'm concerned.
I live in Serbia, but I'd also take a huge pile of shit on every monument which praises Tito's communist partisans which killed 250.000 innocent people who's only sin was a hungarian or german family-name. If that makes me a right-winged fascist, well I don't give a fuck!
@dipswitch
You differentiate between "fascists" and "socialists" as if these were the two antipodes of the political spectrum. According to http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com/, this isn't true. Quote:
You differentiate between "fascists" and "socialists" as if these were the two antipodes of the political spectrum. According to http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com/, this isn't true. Quote:
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The battle is not "fascism" vs. "socialism". The battle is collectivism vs. individualism.Fascism is a form of socialism. The best example of Fascism was Nazi Germany. Fascism is the public ownership of all property except in name. It allows citizens to pretend that they own property, but they must use it in accordance with the wishes of the state. Since ownership means the ability to control a piece of property, the ownership is actually in the hands of the government.
Fascism is often confused with other aspects of the Nazi regime. The Nazis were racists and nationalists. These are not necessary components of Fascism, though. Fascism is simply government ownership of all property in fact, with private ownership of property in name.
In every significant way, Fascism resembles Communism. It also has a record of massive slaughter, scapegoats, starvation, and destruction of wealth. It has the same moral base as Communism. It is founded on Collectivism. They are different faces of the same evil system.
Adok: fascism isn't socialism at all, fascism cares about the Nation (fascism is a sick nationalism) whereas socialism cares about the citizens and supposedly the weakest ones. fascism want the citizens to be strong or die, socialism want the weak citizens not to die.
Your quote stinks, collectivism isn't an "evil system", it's a humanist idea at the beginning. Without any bit of collectivism we would all live in a Mad Max world. The pragmatic solution is a fair balance between collectivism and individualism, which is modern socialism.
Your quote stinks, collectivism isn't an "evil system", it's a humanist idea at the beginning. Without any bit of collectivism we would all live in a Mad Max world. The pragmatic solution is a fair balance between collectivism and individualism, which is modern socialism.
Jailbird: let me post some pictures from my city, too:
So this is what Budapest typically is, a nice and peaceful city, and I would really like to keep it that way.
It is not this case in Hungary, where we have a solid democracy. If we don't like the government, we vote for someone else 4 years later. If we really don't like the government, we join one of the opposition parties.
People of Hungary elected a government that is in the process of an unpopular economic reform. So it's just natural that their popularity is now <50%. If we just replaced the government whenever it's unpopular, the country would never finish a single reform. That's why there are elections every 4 years, not quarterly.
So this is what Budapest typically is, a nice and peaceful city, and I would really like to keep it that way.
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violence _could_ be approved when they help achieving radical positive changes
It is not this case in Hungary, where we have a solid democracy. If we don't like the government, we vote for someone else 4 years later. If we really don't like the government, we join one of the opposition parties.
People of Hungary elected a government that is in the process of an unpopular economic reform. So it's just natural that their popularity is now <50%. If we just replaced the government whenever it's unpopular, the country would never finish a single reform. That's why there are elections every 4 years, not quarterly.
http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com -> "The content of this website is primarily based on Ayn Rand's philosophy, Objectivism."
Objectivism isn't far from Libertarianism, which put individualist freedoms above all other humanist considerations... that means that the others should fuck off! such a great human philosophy! :/
Objectivism isn't far from Libertarianism, which put individualist freedoms above all other humanist considerations... that means that the others should fuck off! such a great human philosophy! :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WVdLeR97Y&NR
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Fascism is a form of socialism. The best example of Fascism was Nazi Germany. Fascism is the public ownership of all property except in name. It allows citizens to pretend that they own property, but they must use it in accordance with the wishes of the state. Since ownership means the ability to control a piece of property, the ownership is actually in the hands of the government.
I'm sorry but that's just plain horseshit. There were many capitalist corporations in Germany that benefitted imensly from the nazi agenda and were in no way their puppets. Many of those corporations are still around I believe, like BASF. If you are refering to war production you can find the same restrictive use of capitalist property in the allied countries.
Quoting Gem:
Quoting myself, from a previous post:
Éh?
And you don't have to show me photos of Budapest, I was living there for months. Could you also post some pictures of the trash, the dirt, the hundreds of annying bums, the dogshit, the current level of mass-transport or the traffic jams? I'd also like to hear praises from you about the underpasses and streets which constantly smell of urine, or a district in the middle of the city which you try to avoid after dark.
I'm usually an apolitical person, and I'm always somewhere in the middle - I'm much more liberal than right-winged. But the current unpopular economic reform is in big part caused by the socialist gouverment (just remember Mr. Medgyessy "Dimwit" Péter's "reforms" which almost led Hungary to an economycal crisis - even his own gouverment gave him the middle finger). Two yeard after that, Gyurcsány admits lying and that they fucked up the country just to stay in leading position. Sure, nothing wrong with that, especially few weeks after Hungarians are let known that they have to live way under their level. The worst part is the distasteful hypocracy he's trying to commit just to crawl out of his lousy situation. Please, there's nothing respectful about a politician who admitted digging deep in the shit, even if you know every one of them are lying.
Once again, I don't approve the riots in Budapest. Clear?
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It is not this case in Hungary, where we have a solid democracy.
Quoting myself, from a previous post:
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Don't get me wrong, I don't endorse the violence in Budapest, it's not the same case.
Éh?
And you don't have to show me photos of Budapest, I was living there for months. Could you also post some pictures of the trash, the dirt, the hundreds of annying bums, the dogshit, the current level of mass-transport or the traffic jams? I'd also like to hear praises from you about the underpasses and streets which constantly smell of urine, or a district in the middle of the city which you try to avoid after dark.
I'm usually an apolitical person, and I'm always somewhere in the middle - I'm much more liberal than right-winged. But the current unpopular economic reform is in big part caused by the socialist gouverment (just remember Mr. Medgyessy "Dimwit" Péter's "reforms" which almost led Hungary to an economycal crisis - even his own gouverment gave him the middle finger). Two yeard after that, Gyurcsány admits lying and that they fucked up the country just to stay in leading position. Sure, nothing wrong with that, especially few weeks after Hungarians are let known that they have to live way under their level. The worst part is the distasteful hypocracy he's trying to commit just to crawl out of his lousy situation. Please, there's nothing respectful about a politician who admitted digging deep in the shit, even if you know every one of them are lying.
Once again, I don't approve the riots in Budapest. Clear?
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OK, except one thing: In the Soviet Union there was a motto called: "Those who don't work, shouldn't eat." So "socialism wants the weak citizens not to die" does not apply to the Soviet Union. Moreover, in the Soviet Union it was part of the four-year plans that a certain number of citizens be shot.Adok: fascism isn't socialism at all, fascism cares about the Nation (fascism is a sick nationalism) whereas socialism cares about the citizens and supposedly the weakest ones. fascism want the citizens to be strong or die, socialism want the weak citizens not to die.
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Why modern socialism and not capitalism?Your quote stinks, collectivism isn't an "evil system", it's a humanist idea at the beginning. Without any bit of collectivism we would all live in a Mad Max world. The pragmatic solution is a fair balance between collectivism and individualism, which is modern socialism.
Adok: Although I'm not an expert on the Soviet Union I'm pretty sure that those who *couldn't* work would eat. Try to learn the difference between "not willing to" and "not be able to".
Second of all, fuckings to you for calling me a fascist.
And my final point: That story about Tomcat is weird. Searching a house because someone is accused of damaging a monument? If that is really what happened than that is absolutely insane. On the other hand, it doesn't surprise me in this after 9/11 world where basic human rights don't mean a thing anymore.
Second of all, fuckings to you for calling me a fascist.
And my final point: That story about Tomcat is weird. Searching a house because someone is accused of damaging a monument? If that is really what happened than that is absolutely insane. On the other hand, it doesn't surprise me in this after 9/11 world where basic human rights don't mean a thing anymore.
@Sparcus: the official statement is that he was accused for taking a part in destroying public property (the fact that it's a russian monument wasn't mentioned).
However, Tomcat was always a pain in the ass of the current gouverment for his views and actions, he was probably monitored by the secret agency a long before the riots, and they were just waiting for an excuse to catch him.
However, Tomcat was always a pain in the ass of the current gouverment for his views and actions, he was probably monitored by the secret agency a long before the riots, and they were just waiting for an excuse to catch him.
why can't you just leave our soldiers alone, you sick fucks?!
Because a lot of "your" soldiers were the filthiest, most revolting scum on Earth. You sick fuck.
quit this shit, this is not interesting topic in pouet.net imo :( and when i read about tomcat i feel sad because you know...
its not nice... not nice.. sucks. this shit sucks.
Jailbird: Easy man, I do read your posts - I think we agree on most of the fundamental points. I still had to make it stand out clear that people who riot instead of using functional democratic measures are just trouble makers (as opposed to the national heroes of 1956).
Tomcat is one of the top 10 troublemakers in Hungary. He describes his offenses in his blog: beating up gysies, graffiti taggers, leading others into violence, destroying public property. Even when he fights for "good" points, he does that in an undemocratic way. If more people acted like Tomcat, we would live in a country of endless strikes, riots and street violence. He's a true attention worm: he dwells in the public attention he receives, and whenever someone opposes to his acts, it just brings more attention to him.
Tomcat is a person who forces others to do what he wants them to do. Now it's the police who forces Tomcat walk along the line. The only difference is that the police actions are derived from public will.
I know Tomcat myself and I'm concerned about him. I respect all the good stuff he did - like saving abused dogs or organizing demoscene parties. Still, it's not by the force of evil that he's in prison right now.
Tomcat is one of the top 10 troublemakers in Hungary. He describes his offenses in his blog: beating up gysies, graffiti taggers, leading others into violence, destroying public property. Even when he fights for "good" points, he does that in an undemocratic way. If more people acted like Tomcat, we would live in a country of endless strikes, riots and street violence. He's a true attention worm: he dwells in the public attention he receives, and whenever someone opposes to his acts, it just brings more attention to him.
Tomcat is a person who forces others to do what he wants them to do. Now it's the police who forces Tomcat walk along the line. The only difference is that the police actions are derived from public will.
I know Tomcat myself and I'm concerned about him. I respect all the good stuff he did - like saving abused dogs or organizing demoscene parties. Still, it's not by the force of evil that he's in prison right now.