UE4 engine vs. rendering quality of demos
category: general [glöplog]
sdw: my point there was about coding some things (like say - camera movements or sync) for the sake of it.
coding something interesting for the sake of the understanding / experience is a totally different thing.
coding something interesting for the sake of the understanding / experience is a totally different thing.
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and once the demotool is fairly sophisticated..coder are useless :) :)
with our latest demo Guille saw the demo just few hours before the party^^
This is a great example of demoscene spirit. IMHO Cocoon demos are looking way better and more interesting (with some original visual effects) that any demo made with UE4 or Unity so far.
Using commercial engines is against demoscene spirit. It is probably some (con-)artists wet dream to become independent from those lazy coder bastards, but in reality, it ruins the spirit of interdisciplinary collaboration and actually is disrespectful for demoscene roots = cracking culture and fight against status-quo ;)
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it's only the demoscene, where we're still stuck in the mindset of 1993
Nothing has changed, so why not. I would even say, now more than ever, it is necessary to show that there is alternative way of doing things i.e. from scratch in a small team of passionated misfits that wants to "dominate the world" with their exceptional talents.
At the same time, I agree it has to be good enough to impress others and actually prove the point.
*and pretty much everything what Soundy have said
Using a commercial engine is the same as using "ripped" music or graphics. I remember feeling pretty conflicted about demos like "VIP2" or "State of Mind" but they ended up being just plain good demos. I wouldn't say the same for something like this, for instance.
However, what *does* bother me is that, at least in a democompo, the playing field is not level when people use non-scene content or code. If everyone can go into the compo saying "hey, it doesn't matter if I use a commercial track" then the door could be opened to be potentially very rewarding productions. But then everyone has to agree on that going in.
Not that it matters all that much, in the long run :)
However, what *does* bother me is that, at least in a democompo, the playing field is not level when people use non-scene content or code. If everyone can go into the compo saying "hey, it doesn't matter if I use a commercial track" then the door could be opened to be potentially very rewarding productions. But then everyone has to agree on that going in.
Not that it matters all that much, in the long run :)
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This might be a diminishing group, but considering the attendance numbers at for example X2016, a C64 only party, there still seems to be quite a lot of people who are still have an interest in the "traditional" scene.
I'm not familiar with the attendees at X, but there's potentially a difference between "drinking with your friends in a nostalgic setting", and "understanding what it takes to code specific effects".
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But for me, working out the ideas and algorithms behind it, actually *understanding* how things work, and then implementing it, gives a much greater sense of accomplishment.
This, and also the fact that I thought that any "demo" was done to showcase the skills of the individual/group, not the ability to code bash libs and snippets. Don't get me wrong though I'm not against using engines, libs etc. for prods, but I'm voting based on what (I think) the individual/group has achieved, not on the tools used.
Code:
there's a great irony in the thought that coders are bemoaning the use of unreal for its "free dof / lighting / etc" while at the same time lifting the implementations of the techniques for their own engines from papers and presentations written by the engine coders of unreal. For me there's a great difference between using something without understanding it and learning/understanding how its done from papers. If one simply "copy/pastes" some code from GPU Gems or any other paper without understanding the concept behind it he not only betrayed himself from growing as a coder but also deceived the audience to some extent by pretending to have skills that are not really there. E.g. when I ask you about the super nice DoF in your demo and and you clearly have no clue about how it works I'm disappointed.
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E.g. when I ask you about the super nice DoF in your demo and and you clearly have no clue about how it works I'm disappointed.
maybe you're disappointed that no one NEEDS to know how that stuff works anymore to use it? maybe its frustration at the obsolescence of your specific knowledge?
I'm playing devils advocate here, but whats stopping these boss-ass coders from hopping onto a commercial engine and making demos that are THAT MUCH BETTER?
Or maybe they are and they've left this scene far behind...
liamislord: nice try ;) but again, as Soundy have said, it's not only about "what", but also about "how". Also what smash have said: using commercial engine is not a clear advantage for demos. And again, there are many examples of demos that look already better than UE4/Unity.
And of course nobody can compete with photorealistic fly-by scenes that were acquired using photogrammetric techniques with realistic BRDF measurements. And this is how basically commercial engines luring the unaware audience (*) today into believing they are so superior, but if you look deeper - they are not.
*sometimes this audience is a manager making decision in a gamedev studio aka your boss with a real truncheon, so be aware ;P
And of course nobody can compete with photorealistic fly-by scenes that were acquired using photogrammetric techniques with realistic BRDF measurements. And this is how basically commercial engines luring the unaware audience (*) today into believing they are so superior, but if you look deeper - they are not.
*sometimes this audience is a manager making decision in a gamedev studio aka your boss with a real truncheon, so be aware ;P
right, of course there are demos that look better, but couldn't a commercial engine be considered another 'limited platform' or 'hardware constraint'?
liamislord: why don't you propose this idea on UE4/Unity forums directly?
You will find much bigger audience there and maybe even have a chance to meet Tim and John in person. They might give you their autographs, but I kind of doubt they will invite you for a ride on their private jets/yachts, but who knows, who knows. Give it a try, man.
You will find much bigger audience there and maybe even have a chance to meet Tim and John in person. They might give you their autographs, but I kind of doubt they will invite you for a ride on their private jets/yachts, but who knows, who knows. Give it a try, man.
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And this is how basically commercial engines luring the unaware audience (*) today into believing they are so superior, but if you look deeper - they are not.
You lost me a bit there. Which unaware audience is being lured away by commercial game engines, and from what are they lured away?
absence: lured away? What are you talking about, sir? They are "lured into believing UE4/Unity is superior" is what I believe is written there.
tomkh whats with the condescention / snarkiness?
you're invalidating everything I say instead of legitimately addressing it...?
you're invalidating everything I say instead of legitimately addressing it...?
liamislord: it's nothing personal. Sorry, if you feel personally touched.
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absence: lured away? What are you talking about, sir? They are "lured into believing UE4/Unity is superior" is what I believe is written there.
Sorry, I either misread or mistyped. Let me try that again: Which unaware audience is being lured into believing that commercial game engines are superior, and what are the commercial game engines supposedly superior to?
absence: look at the mainstream digital art world
i.e. "the wrong" biennial (thats a thing, google it) , paperthin (http://www.paper-thin.org/#v2) , DiMoDa...
this is where the attention is, it is happening
i.e. "the wrong" biennial (thats a thing, google it) , paperthin (http://www.paper-thin.org/#v2) , DiMoDa...
this is where the attention is, it is happening
tomkh: I suggest you to give up and stop answering to this discussion.
These guys believe that we are "afraid" of Unreal and Unity, they don't understand what the problem is.
For them, code is not art. So, for them, using commercial engines is not a problem, but using commercial music and models is, of course.
Just give up and let it go.
These guys believe that we are "afraid" of Unreal and Unity, they don't understand what the problem is.
For them, code is not art. So, for them, using commercial engines is not a problem, but using commercial music and models is, of course.
Just give up and let it go.
imserso: how reductive and presumptive of you
i should expand:
I am ENTIRELY in the camp of code as art, its my life. i am VERY frustrated at the lack of true, beautiful code in digital art. but thats not what we are talking about here (correct me if i'm wrong)
but if we are talking about the graphics demo program, shouldnt we strive for amazing graphical output? in that context of grpahics demos of course...
I am ENTIRELY in the camp of code as art, its my life. i am VERY frustrated at the lack of true, beautiful code in digital art. but thats not what we are talking about here (correct me if i'm wrong)
but if we are talking about the graphics demo program, shouldnt we strive for amazing graphical output? in that context of grpahics demos of course...
What Smash said, *especially* regarding that funny sticking to code as the exclusive demoscene option.
A decent motion design project, if it is supposed to be done faster than in several years, requires not any less coding effort than recycling your windows stub and modifying your plasma.frag.
And good luck with making anything interesting with Unreal or Unity without writing code btw.
A decent motion design project, if it is supposed to be done faster than in several years, requires not any less coding effort than recycling your windows stub and modifying your plasma.frag.
And good luck with making anything interesting with Unreal or Unity without writing code btw.
ton : no one is saying these engines should replace code lmfao i dont think anyone would even find this forum who thinks that is true
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next time i'll use ue4 with flex and vxgi :) without mentioning it in tne nfo/credit :)
seriously, please do! if you'll manage to make something nice with it, i might help with extra promo by the makers of flex and vxgi.
also, i'm not sure exactly what is the 'no credit' thing you're trying to diss us with.
should we write a full list of tools used during the production and show it in demo credits? since when it became mandatory?
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mainstream digital art world
Oh, we have a bad-ass over here :)
Looks like not the only one... so yeah, time to go, it was a lovely evening guys, see you!
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ton : no one is saying these engines should replace code lmfao i dont think anyone would even find this forum who thinks that is true
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I will never ever rate an Unreal, Unity or whatever ultra professional engine based demo above a self-coded demo, even if the self-coded demo looks horrible.
As far as I understand the demoscene, it was always centered on coding. So, just by being Unreal or Unity based, any demo loses a lot of value to me.
tomkh: cya, thanks for providing the ever famous toxicity people warned me about this community!